Ep 245 | Ways to Sell your Monthly Giving Program with John Lester

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Most fundraisers don't think of themselves as sales people. And while “sales” in the nonprofit space might look a little different, the foundation of taking them on a journey that ultimately leads in a donation, is still the same. Paying attention to how you you reach out to new donors and what that experience looks like is critical.

What you'll learn:

→ how to make it more about them.
→ why leading with stories helps with better connection.
→ benefits of asking the questions.

Want to skip ahead? Here are key takeaways:

[3:12] Sales is really about the opportunity to help someone solve a problem, achieve a dream, or make things better. When you approach conversations in what's in it for them vs what can they do for you, you're more likely to get that donation. This can lead to a more aligned fit, and therefore increased donor retention.
[13:10] Connect the dots to create emotion. Don't forget to share stories. These stories will help convey the work you do in an emotional way. Help them dream so they can see how their contribution builds these dreams.
[17:13] Ask questions and listen. This way you know what part of your programs to highlight and what stories to share. Take this into future conversations so you have some common ground to share.

John Lester

John Lester

John Lester is on a mission to transform limiting mindsets that hold back salespeople and small business owners. Having built his career helping companies big and small drive revenue through coaching and training, John knows that tech stacks, skills and product knowledge are ineffective without the right sales psychology. His goal is to help sellers and solopreneurs reframe sales as mutually beneficial versus oppositional through personal insights and practical coaching. Learn more: https://attitudeselling.com 

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50 Ideas to Add Value to Your Monthly Giving Program

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Full Transcript

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] A lot of times when we think about fundraising, we don't think of ourselves as sales people, when in fact, we are selling a opportunity to join our cause we're selling an opportunity for them to solve a problem to get engaged, we are selling. And that doesn't mean that it needs to be gross or yucky, or icky. And we're talking a lot about that this month on the podcast. And so today I have John Lester, who is here to talk about mindset around sales, and how we can kind of build these long term relationships with people how we can kind of get people into our programs in a way that feels good that feels in alignment that matches the donors values and goals with our needs.

So John Lester is on a mission to transform limiting mindsets that hold back salespeople and small business owners. Having built his career helping companies big and small drive revenue through coaching and training. John knows that tech stacks skills and product knowledge are ineffective without the right sales psychology. His goal is to help sellers and solopreneurs reframe sales as mutually beneficial versus oppositional through personal insights and practical coaching. Lots of great just kind of things that you can do to kind of build this foundation of sales in your organization, how you can work as a team, to increase the donors that are coming through increase the relationships you have with these donors, and just overall be more successful and feel better about the work that you're doing. So I hope that you'll join me for this episode.

But before we get into it, it is brought to you by our February freebie, we have a guide that we've put together for you that is 50 ideas for how you can add value to your monthly giving program. So if you're looking at expanding or starting or just reevaluating some of the different value adds that you offer your monthly donors, this is the guide for you. There are 50 ideas in here that you can brainstorm with have fun with and get creative with. You can download this guide for free at https://thefirstclick.net/resources, or on any of the show note pages for podcast episodes in the month of February. I can't wait to hear which ideas you snag from this guide. Let's get into the episode.

[Intro] You're listening to the digital marketing therapy podcast. I'm your host, Sami Bedell-Mulhern. Each month we dive deep into a digital marketing or fundraising strategy that you can implement in your organization. Each week, you'll hear from guest experts, nonprofits, and myself on best practices, tips and resources to help you raise more money online and reach your organizational goals.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hey there everyone, please join me in welcoming John Lester to the podcasts. John, thanks for being here.

[John Lester] Hey, Sami, glad to be here.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So we're talking sales today, from kind of a mindset perspective, and how we can kind of show up better for our audiences and get more of those donations coming in. But before we kind of jump into that, you know, why is this a topic you're passionate about? And how did you get into this work? Tell us a little bit about your energy behind behind sales and conversations.

[John Lester] Yeah, it's, it's great. The thing I like about sales, and once I started to really understand it, is that if you define sales, as the person who is always happy back slaps, buys the guys drinks, blah, blah, blah. That's not the sales I'm talking about the sales I'm talking about is that you have the opportunity to help somebody either solve a problem, achieve a dream, or make their life better. Now, the problem briefly, just so we understand why it's problem is that too many people go into sales. Without that perspective, and their perspective is, oh, I've got to close something this quarter, I've got a close something this month. And the pressure is on them sometimes from by themselves. I mean, sometimes they put the pressure on themselves. And sometimes if they're working for somebody, it's for them. And you go, Well, why does that exist? Well, here's the reality. The reality is, is that any business has to understand to the best of its ability, how much revenue is coming in, to cover the expenses that they need to stay in business. And once you will, typically once you hire people, once you commit to vendors, once you buy things, those expenses are somewhat set. Now if your revenue doesn't match that you're in into trouble, and partially that's what you're seeing right now, with all the layoffs in corporate America, is that people overestimated or underestimated depending on which perspective what the economy was going to do and 20 to 23 and 24. And now they have to figure out how to adjust their books. So you only have two things you can do. You can either increase your revenues or you can decrease your expenses. Okay. So too many people I think get caught in not truly understanding this notion of I want to get up in the morning no When I help somebody, I want to help them solve a problem, I want to help make their life better. And that's the perspective that I've come to. So I used to sell a long, long time ago, with the whole intent of oh boy, I'm gonna make my number, I'm gonna get the rewards, I'm gonna get all these wonderful things. And then he said, Wait a minute, what happens if I start focusing on the buyer focusing on understanding what the buyer life is like? So that debt has given me a lot more pleasure. And by the way, the interesting part was, when I started to focus less on the revenue side, the number side and focused more on the people more on the wins for them. My revenue numbers went up. Yeah, I love that kind of cool,

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] huh? Well, because I think we crave human connection, it's not just about that, that transactional thing just doesn't feel as good. Like, we want that personal connection to the brand to the product to the person we're buying from. And and I think, you know, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on kind of what that also did for retention, and what that also did for repeat customers, you know, when that mindset kind of shifted for you.

[John Lester] That's it's a great point. And they were. And I've seen this and I live this, there are typically two sales in every industry, almost every deal unless it is 100%, pure transaction. So if I'm walking down the street in New York City, I get a little hungry, I'm going to an area that I've done not usually and and I see a hot dog vendor on the corner, and I go, when I buy a hot dog from the hot dog vendor, I don't really care how they treat me, because I'm not going to have another interaction with them. All right. But in all other situations, there are two sales in the cert first sale is the first sale, it's where the buyer buys from you based upon the representation, typically of your marketing, and then in your sales approach. And I'm not going to get into here because we'll take too long, but within the first four to six minutes of your interaction with them, they have made a decision whether or not they're going to buy from you, and the next 30 to 40 or 50 minutes, their subconscious is trying to figure out if they should reverse that decision. Okay, now, the second sale is then with second and subsequent, so however long you keep that client second sale, is based on that first interaction, and from sale to implementation. Okay, so at a point when when I was doing a lot of work with extremely large companies, primarily insurance and healthcare companies, and and a new account wanted to talk to him and work with me, he said, Look, guys, one of my criteria, to working with you, is that I have to be able to retain you as a high value high paying high margin client for eight to 10 years. Can you go into the relationship with that expectation? So once you set that in their mind, none of them ever said no, to me. And I had some of the most successful clients.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And that was, was that just to clarify, was that like, after you'd already been working with them for some time? Or do you set that expectation kind of like, right from the get rich? Like, I guess, if we were to like to apply this in the nonprofit world, like, are you? Are you kind of saying like, if you kind of build the beginning part of it correctly, then it's easier to go to somebody and say, hey, could we have like a three year event sponsorship commitment? Or, you know, do you think we could follow up with you in six months about an increase of Your monthly gift? Or like, what's your capacity? Like? Are you talking about being more direct in that regard?

[John Lester] I love how you phrase that, and I love where that's coming from, and I'm going to completely flip that for you. Because I think that's what, what too many sellers do is, and they just they interpret what I just said, as you know, are they are is the prospect willing to commit to me based on what I want? Yeah. And what I start that conversation with is, look, here's what I bring to you. One of the things they bring to us, and I would only handle very small number of clients, because I was handling very large volumes with these clients. I said, Look, you will only 24 by seven 365. Yeah, you will have every single phone number that I have. I have not taken a vacation in the last 30 years without having client interactions on that vacation. Yes, my wife. Okay, so we I just give you an example of of where this goes and why it's important. So we had a user group meeting for this one company, and I invited this prospect to the user group meeting, and we were going to negotiate the contract. This is a nice seven figure contract. We were going to negotiate the contract at the users meeting. Don't tell anybody as we were drinking on the side, but we're not going to get into that okay. And I thought I had three days to do this. And I said to my wife because we were in Florida. I said to my wife, Listen, why don't you fly down to Key West? This is where we were going to go on vacation. I said, and I was in Orlando, I will jump on the plane when this is done, I will meet you in Key West. Well, we get to the night that we're supposed to finish this the afternoon, so I can take the evening flight to Key West, we're not done. Now I've got my wife and Key West, I've paid for the top hotel in Key West. What are my choices, my choices are to say to the prospect. Let's pick this up later. Or my choice was to call my wife and say I can't make it down there.

I took that choice. 36 hours later, we had a seven figure contract. And

I told the client, this is what I'm doing for you. So I built the respect I built the fact that the client could rely on me. So Steve bistrot was it was a very high end executive at IBM for many, many years, wrote a few books about this and did a lot of research, probably the best research I've ever seen. And he went to executives and said, What is the most important characteristic of salesperson to you? And it wasn't that they understood the product, it wasn't that they understood the price, it wasn't any of those things, it was that they acted as if they were a member of the team on the side of the customer. So what does this mean to the nonprofits? Nobody likes to be sold, but everybody wants to buy but everybody wants to buy based on their own reasons. And why did they buy and if you look, and I just use Tony Robbins, because I like the way he put this. Tony Robbins talks about the six needs of human being, and their certainty and uncertainty and significance, love and connection and growth and contribution. And when you start to look at that, you start to realize that that's why people make decisions to satisfy one or more of those needs. So the question to the nonprofit is, what is it that your prospect is looking for that you can satisfy? Not? What are you offering that the prospect wants? Don't look at it that way. So if you start the conversation with, what is it that you're trying to accomplish? And if I can help you accomplish that, can we have a long term relationship? It's a very different conversation. Yeah.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and I think, the more we can learn about, like, if you take a meeting with somebody at a nonprofit organization, you know, the end goal is that they're going to ask you for something, right? Like, it's not like people are entering into those conversations. Same with your clients that you're meeting with in signing these deals. Right. So I think part of what I'm hearing from you is, it's, it's putting them first but then also asking the right questions to get the right information so that you can frame the conversation about the value you're giving them as, which is ultimately the the work and the impact they're going to be able to allow you to do. But that you're not coming in just laying out a folder saying, here's all the amazing things we do. Give us money, right? Because then it's not necessarily talking in those first, whatever, a few minutes about their motivation and what they care about and how they would want to engage with you.

[John Lester] So let me amplify that for you. If I may. I was working with and I don't want to mention names. I was working with an extremely large international nonprofit on a local basis. And they create affordable housing. We're going to renovate it go with that. And when I started, they said, Oh, come come to our annual meeting. I said, Okay, great. Let me come to the annual meeting. And they do this every year. And they brought constituents in, they brought supporters in, they brought their board in, and it was it was a very good rah rah meeting. It really was. But I walked into the room, and I'm looking around, and they have all of these images around the room. What do you think the images are off?

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] You're gonna guess maybe the house.

[John Lester] Correct. I said, so. You build houses? Yeah. And then you walk away? Oh, no, no, no, of course not. No, no, no. And they started talking about the families. I said, then if your end goal is to make families better, why do you not have a single picture of a family up around there? Because now when I start to go to potential donors, I'm not talking about building houses. I'm talking about the lives that were able to change. And people can relate to, let's say, an elderly parent that needs some kind of affordable housing, they can relate to somebody who they know that's working down the street and in a in a low wage. business that needs affordable housing. It's it's interesting. In some cities, they actually have something called workforce housing. And workforce housing is nurses. Its police its fire its ambulance, its people that really don't make that much money to be able to afford to live there. But they recognize that there's value in having those people live close to where they work. When you start to look at what the mission is of the organization, and you start to translate that as to what how that's important, potentially, to somebody, and how somebody might look at that. It's a very different conversation. So it's not that you can easily say,

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] oh, sorry, just gonna say it's not necessarily the how you get it done, how you accomplish the work, but it's really sharing Once the work is done, this is what the impact can be.

[John Lester] People, people don't want to buy house people want to buy dreams, right. All right. So if you're saying that that contribution in this case, is is the need that you're going to fill, well, how does that person perceive contribution? Not? How do you perceive contribution until you have enough data on your on your contributors? To be able to say, hey, we think that most of our contributors see contribution in this fashion? Is that how you see it? People will tell you how they want to buy people will tell you how they want to be sold. If you're listening?

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, I think that part that you said at the very end is the key thing, because I think a lot of times we ask questions, okay, we know, we should ask questions, and we should learn more about the people but we don't pay attention, or we don't put that information anywhere to where we can follow up or thoughtfully come up with the strategy for what might be the best fit for that person. Like that listening piece, I think, is really, really difficult for a lot of people, because we're just so focused on like what you said at the beginning, I have to close this deal. But I'm, I'm curious too. And like these conversations that you have with folks like, have you had experiences where maybe it's led you down a completely different way with your with your contracts or with what you're going to put together what the deal is that you want to close? Because had you not taken the time to really ask those questions, you might have maybe left money on the table or left critical parts of the of the plan off the table that might lose trust, like, you know, is that kind of part of all of that for you as well?

[John Lester] Yeah, it is very much a part of it. So I'll give you I'll give you one example that just pops into my head. So and this goes back years, this this whole notion of being able to call on the telephone, and your bank says, What can I help you with that, that's that entire technology, going back to when it was started is called Interactive Voice Response. So this is when we would push the buttons and press one for this and two for this. Okay. So I was working with large insurance companies on this. And the way the organization's exam only a few were presenting this to them was as a a money saver. Because it was I'm gonna give you an example. It's one organization that I was working with. They were it was costing them about $3.25 per call to have an agent handle it. And on our on the automated system. We were able to get that down to about 85 cents. In one year, they did 21 million calls. A lot of money. Okay. That's a lot of money. All right. So I, so we set up a meeting for these senior level executives, that was one company in the document. And then you could tell by their faces, they were like, oh, man, I really don't want to be here. And I said, Hey, guys, listen, what what is everybody here to talk about? You won't want to talk about interactive voice response. And they're like, Yeah, I said, Oh, that's really great. That's it six or seven or eight of them. And I said, that's great, guys. But I hate to break the news to you. I really don't want to talk about that. Like, what do you mean, I don't wanna talk. That's why we're here said no. What I think we really want to talk about and you tell me if I'm wrong, is how to replicate your absolute best agent on their absolute best day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, 24 hours a day at 1/10 the cost of what you're paying an agent today. Would that interest you? The whole room lit up. All right. Why? Because that the problem they were trying to solve? Yes, money is a problem. But money wasn't the main problem they were trying to solve. They were trying to position themselves on customer service. reducing costs was a secondary benefit. So yeah, you really, you really do have to understand what's what's fascinating is and this is what makes life so interesting is every single one of us, including twins, are completely different. So we can't assume that the person that we're that you're going to go see as a contributor is going to have the same motivations as the last person you saw. They might have similar motivations, but not going to be the same. Yeah, and you have to Spend the time and send me a think here's the problem. I think when people think about asking questions, what they ask are technical questions. And people don't want to sit there and discuss technical questions, not if they're decision makers. Decision makers want to talk about results, and problem solving. So ask the questions around that. Ask the questions around, you know, why is this particular thing important to you? What how is that impacting you? How would you like to see that change? What would happen in three years, if that was changed? How would you feel about an annual giving program that matched your ability to contribute and give you the benefit that you're looking for? It's a very different conversation.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and you mentioned earlier, you know, something about what we perceive as their motivation or values versus what, what are their own values. And I think what's really interesting about having more and more of his conversations, and like you said, giving time to kind of build this up and, and listen and make decisions based off of that. So when we think about the value that we put into our monthly giving program for those members, they'll tell you, you know, what you hear over and over and over again, in those conversations is going to tell you what value you should put in to that program in order to get more people engaged and excited about it, you know, like, that is your research. If you're struggling with Well, what should we add? What what's going to make people excited? What you hear most often from those conversations is exactly what you should do.

[John Lester] will use Yes, you should. You have I don't know. It's and it's really just my own head thinking because you have an 85 to 90 something percent chance of being right, you have to go into that recognizing that you virtually never have 100% chance of being right. So if you suggest it, as opposed to tell them or maybe you say to them, Look, I'm not sure what it what benefits you would like to get. But let me tell you what the major benefits are that we've that we've seen from from our contributors, that helps people, right, because you're asking somebody to make a decision, they might not have all of the right information. And the reason most people don't make decisions is not so much that the offer doesn't match the need. It's that they don't feel in their mind that they have the right information. And they don't know how to express that in many cases, the biggest way it gets expressed, and it's the biggest flag there is, is off think about it. Yeah. Right, it means they don't have enough. It's, it's it really is kind of fascinating. And look, not just here's the reality, and everybody knows it nonprofit is a is a federally recognized and state recognized status from a tax perspective, it does not mean that the company doesn't need to make money, right? So stop putting all these silly things around it and understand they still need to make money. Right? And yeah, if you walk in and sit down with them, yeah, you should expect to be asked if you'd like to contribute. And any of these development directors that feel uncomfortable about asking a potential contributor, if they would like to contribute, they don't understand what they're trying to do. And they don't understand that that person knows that they're going to be asked to contribute. Yes, that's not that's not the holdup. The holdup is in in getting an understanding of why they why they want to contribute to your cause.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, well, and I think also, so many organizations do so many different things. And so when you come in with a plethora of options or programs, because you don't truly understand who the person is you're having a conversation with, that just becomes overwhelming right now. You're just bombarding them with information, but none of it is potentially emotionally connecting to who they are. So like how, you know, as we're setting up these initial conversations, and we talk about kind of that sales mindset, like how important you said, the first four to six minutes are critically important. So I'm worried that somebody's going to think well, now I have to pitch them everything in those first few minutes. So they know everything about us and who we are. Is it more important to possess now with the

[John Lester] decisions made? That's not where the decision is? Yeah. No, what what are they? This is what's so fascinating, the only thing they're trying to do, and this is around the discussion of the limbic brain, or that the Neanderthal brain, the only thing they're trying to do in the beginning, is to make a decision around the areas of is this person like me, basically, can I trust them? Or do I need to run and it's being made at a subconscious level, not at a conscious level. So if, you know you walk in and, and I'm not trying to pick on anybody, I'm just trying to I'm just trying to point these things out. If if you walk in and you're wearing a pirate's hat carrying a saber, and it's supposed to be a discussion on, you know, helping helping infants that are offering to something, you have to think about what is that person's first reaction going to be with you? And how much of the brain is spent on working on the maybe I need to run side versus Oh, I liked this person side. Yeah, so I'm not saying anything is wrong? I'm really not I'm saying that the seller just has to understand what's going on in the mind of the buyer. And respect that. That's all. And it's not about product. It's not about offering, it's not about ask it's, can I trust this person to have a reasonable conversation? Is this somebody that I think is going to be able to help me solve my problem? If the answer is yes, then the sellers job is to help start start to identify the problem that they're trying to solve.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, and I think that's crucially important because nonprofits already have to work a little bit harder to gain the trust of donors, because so many are not doing the right things with those funds or doing the impact, there's, you know, we have a little bit, especially if it's not an organization you've engaged with, so it's almost doubly hard and that you have, you need to build that trust with you as the individual, but also trust that the organization is going to do what this person says they're going to do with it. So I think that's critically important to think about, instead of, I need to get this money, so I can hit my quota. I need to make sure that I'm building trust with this person so that we can have another conversation and take it to the next next step.

[John Lester] Right. Yeah, that's, that's very hard for a lot of people to comprehend. And I hope we can, through this conversation, we can help folks understand that just a little bit better. Yeah.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So one thing that I kind of want to touch on before we wrap this up, then is as leaders of our organizations, you know, we have different goals, you know, we can, hopefully we're tracking them on a monthly or quarterly basis, hopefully, we have combination of revenue streams, so that we, you know, don't have crisis moments when something falls out, or what have you, because that happens. But as leaders, how can we kind of encourage and enforce not enforced, that's the wrong word, how can we kind of encourage this type of conversation and maybe relieve some of that pressure from our staff that are going out to say, take the time to do this, right, even though we might be behind in our in our revenue.

[John Lester] So I may upset a few people. When I say this. Sorry about that, folks. To me, one of the biggest mistakes that management makes relative to the Salesforce is that they expect a salesperson or development director in this case, to understand their value proposition, even when they haven't expressed it fully and properly. They need to understand the buying motivations that they have seen in the past, they and they expect the salesperson to do all of this without the experience that they have, and go out into market and be effective. Salespeople, development directors, for the most part, for the most part, are basically after that thought process is done implementers. And to expect them to do all of that thought process before they become implementers. To me as a mistake. One, it's not their job, to a guarantee that over 50% will get it wrong simply because you're not giving them enough direction. So management of of the organization, whatever that is, needs to understand the value that they bring, how to message that value, how successfully to message that value, understand the buying motivations and start with start with a Tony Robbins list, it doesn't really matter to me, Okay, start somewhere, and say which of these are the ones that are that our buyers resonate with the most and build on that knowledge base. And then let the salesperson figure out how to position that for that particular buyer. For that particular contributor, that particular donor, whatever you want to call them, but don't expect them to come in and do that on their own. And last I heard the average their average tenure of development directors in this country was less than 18 months. Yeah. I don't know if it's gotten any different. I'll tell you that the average tenure of salespeople and I think it's actually been lowered because this stats about two years old. The average duration of salespeople in this country was 14 months

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] at a current job before they moved somewhere else.

[John Lester] If we before they were asked to leave or left on their own, yeah, that's were times higher than the national average. Well, and

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] then you think about how much that costs your organization Session, like instead of taking the time to do what you just said, and train and kind of build that up, as opposed to just throwing them out to the wolves, and then being like, sorry, this isn't working, you know, you've lost momentum, you've lost relationships, you've lost training time, like that's so much more expensive than working, working things through correctly.

[John Lester] And remember, it's if if a potential buyer, a donor, again, however you want to call it has a negative experience with you. It's much harder for them to come back. Yeah, to have a positive experience and say, well, now we'll just go in and tell them a new story now, because this is another thing that it's kind of difficult to put your head around that, if you understand that people are making these decisions to contribute to your organization based upon the need, that they have a perceived need that they have, because again, sometimes they're real, they're always real, but it's just what is that need? What's that need in that person's mind, that there isn't only one way to solve that need? Right, there are multiple ways. And and, and the alternative methodologies, the alternative approaches that that that donor can take to satisfy that need, may be things that look like you, but they may also be things that completely don't look like you. So we have bred into into too many people, this notion that, that when they are in a competitive situation, or when they are asking that they look at other people in their space or other organizations in spaces, their competitors. And what I would suggest that you start to look at is that the competitor is not somebody who offers the same thing, only the competitor is any other way that that person can get that emotional charge that they're looking for. Yeah. So if you if you don't do this right, in the beginning, it's going to be hard to get them back very hard to get them back. Yeah, I mean, you could you could, outside your front door right now and throw a stone at what 100 200 reasonably good, valuable nonprofit organizations that really would appreciate your contribution.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] It's tough business. It is, it is. But I think I'm kind of flipping the script on our selves and how we show up to these conversations can really make a big difference and can set you apart from these other organizations in that trust building pretty quickly. And then you know, this, I think it's a good time to remind people that this is just the beginning of the process. And once you've got somebody in your world, that retention pieces is crucial. And I think that is the place where nonprofits are failing the most is in getting, you know, don't donors to come back again. And again, because they're not continuing this trust that they would have built with them during this process. They're not continuing on. Okay, well, now we've gotten your donation. So now we're going to worry about getting the next people. So I like the way you're framing this groundwork, because if we can pull it all the way through, you're gonna set yourself up for much more success long term.

[John Lester] Are you familiar with the notion called raving fans? Yes, have you ever run across? Okay, the most fascinating aspect of creating a raving fan, by the way, which does not happen on the Development Director side, right? That's only a piece of, but the most amazing notion is that raving fans actually bring more business to the organization to which they are a raving fan on their own. through word of mouth for reference, they contribute higher margins to organizations, they contribute more frequently to organizations. So and this is the piece that that your audience really needs to to understand. And here, what I am suggesting is not easy, because that's the first part. So I'm not trying to give them an easier way to do this. I'm trying to give them a more efficient way to do this more effective way. But if you go ahead and and have a policy of building raving fans, it will take time, but at some point that ramp is going to take off. And raving fans will actually start to bring more business to you than you realized. So it is actually worth going through that. That's what I said earlier, when I gave the example that one organization, if I started with the notion that I need you for eight to 10 years, I've already put in their mind what our duration is going to be. Yeah. And now they don't think of as a point provider. What they think of you as a partner. Yeah, I love that mind. Yeah, you can get that mindspace

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, and you're just talking about building that strong foundation so you have a more stable long term organization over time, which I think is fantastic. Well, John, so many good tips and examples in Ways to kind of think about it and approach how we're, you know, talking to donors, learning from donors and giving them everything that they need to feel connected to us. Is there any kind of last words of wisdom that you'd love to share? Or otherwise, please let everybody know how they can connect with you or learn more from you or get to know kind of the services that you provide?

[John Lester] Yeah, I would just I would just suggest, and maybe folks who don't want to write this down, don't talk about people that contribute to organization as donors. Don't don't use that word anymore. Talk about people who you have the privilege of helping them solve a problem. And seriously, within the internal organization, communicate that way? Yeah. It will change the the mindset of how you see them. And if folks want to get in touch with me, go to my website, attitude selling.com. All my contact information is there. There's some some good information there. I do masterminds around this. To me, it's it's all about mindset. As I've said this before, I'll say it again, I'm not telling you something that's easy, telling you something that is more difficult. But if you want to be on the top of the game, then you do these things.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So good. Well, we'll have all the links to connect with John as well in the show notes at https://thefirstclick.net/245. John, thank you for being our guest today.

[John Lester] My pleasure, Sami, hope we brought some insight to folks.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So I really love that John was talking about how this isn't the easiest method. But it is the method that's going to help you long term. And we're all about that here on this podcast. It's all about setting your marketing foundations, your sales foundations, right taking the time to really build in the core ways that you're working your business, so that it happens consistently and regularly. And then you can add on other things from there. But without a strong foundation, you're bouncing from this to that your staff is confused, your donors are confused, and it causes a lot of stress and burnout. So I've really liked that he mentioned a couple times that this isn't the easiest or fastest path, but it will be something that can strongly lead you towards some more consistency and better opportunities for your organization. So I hope that you love this episode, the shownotes will be available for you at https://thefirstclick.net/245 You can also watch these videos on YouTube if you'd like. All the things are linked up there as well at Digital Marketing therapy. I hope that you'll subscribe wherever you listen so that you don't miss out on a single episode. They come out on Tuesdays. And I just thank you for taking the time to listen. I'm here for you if there's topics that you would find interesting, shoot me a note Hello at the first clip debt net love to hear what would be helpful for you as well. For now, thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you in the next one.

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