Ep 298 | Should Your Marketing Team be In House or Contract? with Kasper Siervslev

As your nonprofit grows, the question of how to manage your marketing efforts becomes increasingly crucial. Should you hire a contractor, bring marketing in-house, or maintain a mix of both? In this episode, we explore the intricacies of building and expanding your marketing team, offering insights on when and how to make these pivotal decisions.

Our guest, Kasper Sierslev, brings a wealth of experience from both agency and in-house perspectives. As a visionary thought leader in marketing operations, Casper shares valuable strategies for nonprofits at various stages of growth.

Key Insights on Marketing Team Development

• The importance of balancing in-house expertise with external perspectives
• How to determine which marketing functions to bring in-house first
• Strategies for effective collaboration between internal teams and external agencies
• The value of documenting processes and creating annual marketing plans

Building Your Marketing Dream Team

Casper suggests starting with a small, versatile team:

• A digital graphic designer for visual content creation
• A copywriter to maintain consistent messaging and brand voice

This foundation allows you to handle day-to-day marketing tasks while still leveraging external expertise for specialized projects or campaigns.

Maximizing Agency Partnerships

When working with external agencies, Casper recommends:

• Clearly defining project scope and expectations
• Fostering transparent communication and collaboration
• Utilizing agencies for their unique insights and industry trends
• Balancing agency work with in-house capabilities for cost-effectiveness

Streamlining Your Marketing Operations

To create more time for creative work, Casper emphasizes the importance of:

• Mapping out processes and creating playbooks
• Batching content creation for efficiency
• Regularly reviewing and refining your marketing strategies

By implementing these strategies, you'll be better equipped to make informed decisions about your marketing team's structure and capabilities, ultimately driving more effective campaigns and better results for your nonprofit.

Want to skip ahead? Here are key takeaways:

07:12 Building Your Initial Marketing Team Start with a digital graphic designer and copywriter as your foundation for handling day-to-day marketing tasks.

15:38 Balancing In-House and External Resources Learn how to effectively collaborate with agencies while maintaining control over your marketing strategy.

23:05 Streamlining Marketing Operations Discover techniques for creating efficient processes that free up time for creative work and strategic thinking.

29:47 Embracing Creative Ideas Understand the power of innovative thinking in marketing and how to prioritize creativity in your campaigns.

Full Transcript

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
Having a consistent marketing plan and somebody to consistently do the marketing is super important as your organization grows. So how do you know when it's time to hire a contractor or bring your marketing in house? Which parts of your marketing do you bring in house? Where do you start? What's the first hire that you make? All of these things are questions that nonprofits struggle with a lot of times, you have your marketing done by your development team or your development director, and while they definitely go hand in hand, a great marketer might not be a great fundraiser, and vice versa. So in today's episode, we're going to be talking through some strategies to think about as you grow your team, especially your marketing team, and determine how you want to handle the tasks, who's going to pass who you're going to pass them off to, and what that looks like for your team and your organization. So my guest to talk about this today is Kasper Siervslev. Kasper is not just a marketer. He is a visionary thought leader dedicated to transforming in house marketing and creative collaboration. Kaspers journey is a testament to his commitment to sharing knowledge and nurturing creativity, not solely for client acquisition, but for the elevation of the entire industry. As the founder of a company that helps brands establish and fortify in house competencies, Kasper brings a wealth of experience. His extensive background encompasses pivotal roles in respective brand agencies, as well as steering his own startup and overseeing global campaigns for one of the world's largest shipping companies, this multifaceted experience equips him with a unique perspective, allowing him to effortlessly bridge the gap between diverse industry landscapes. Kaspers passion for in house marketing is palpable, evident in his best selling book, moving in house. So you're going to get some great strategies for how to think about that first contractor that you hire, going all the way through to Who do you how do you kind of bring your whole marketing team in house as you grow and expand? So whether you're just starting with your first hire or trying to expand your marketing team, this episode is going to be great for you, but before we get into it, is brought to you by do good university. This nonprofit membership was created by my dear friend Patrick Kirby, and I am so honored to be able to be a part of it each and every week. We go live every single week to answer all of your burning questions, about marketing, about fundraising, about events, grants, capital campaigns and everything in between. On top of that, you have access to on demand courses and trainings in grant writing, dei fundraising, board management, social media, marketing, tons and tons of templates and worksheets to help you with everything, and it's all there for you for just $50 a month. So if you want to jump in and try two weeks free, come hang out with us for two live Q and A's and see how it all works out. You can grab that link at thefirstclick.net/dgu, and that's the letter U. You can also listen to an amazing episode that Patrick and I did together talking about the power of community and coming together with other people that are doing similar jobs as you, so that you can learn from them, learn alongside them, share your wisdom and really just help all fundraisers elevate to the next level. So again, if you want two weeks free, head on over to thefirstclick.net/dgu, grab that link, and I can't wait to see you in an upcoming live Q and A. Let's get into the episode.

Intro
You're listening to the digital marketing therapy podcast. I'm your host, Sami Bedell-Mulhern. Each month we dive deep into a digital marketing or fundraising strategy that you can implement in your organization. Each week, you'll hear from guest experts, nonprofits, and myself on best practices, tips and resources to help you raise more money online and reach your organizational goals.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
Hey, friends, please join me in welcoming Kasper Siervslev to the podcast today. Thanks for being here today.

Kasper Siervslev
Thank you for having me. And you got my name right? I know it's a difficult one.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
It's like the worst part of podcast episodes, once we get past the first name introduction, like we're good to go. So I'm excited for our conversation today,

Kasper Siervslev
but you got it right?

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
Oh, well, thank you. Well, I wanted to kind of jump in and before we kind of talk strategies, just kind of hear from you why marketing operations, why kind of supporting businesses and how they kind of add to their marketing teams, whether internally or externally, kind of why is that an area of expertise that you love and something you love to talk about?

Kasper Siervslev
Well, it's because, actually, it may be a funny way around, but I come from the creative side of agency, so I'm actually old art director drawing stuff, and I 10-15, years ago, was hired in at Maersk, a big shipping logistics company, to build the in house agency. And I kind of found out a lot of people have found this out before me, that if you don't have, you know, the machinery running, then it's very difficult to have time to do the creative stuff. Then people decide things so. You have built the assets. When you have, you know, shot the film, they say, Oh, could we do it in blue instead? So, so that kind of got me, got me into the whole operations, not necessarily because I like it, but just because I saw so many places it was. It was such a waste of time. We were wasting time and money on, on, on, all the wrong things. So So I that's kind of, you know, it was out of love for the creative part of things that I actually ended up doing all the boring stuff.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
Yeah, I love that, though, because I often say this as marketers, we still have to hit our deadline, regardless of if everybody else does their part ahead of time. So if we don't get our stuff till the very end, then to your Yeah, to your point, the creative sometimes tends to suffer. So I love that that was kind of your passion, your backstory, because I've definitely felt that, too. And doesn't matter the size of your organization, so you worked for, I mean, a global organization. There's still not enough people, there's still not enough bodies, there's still not enough marketing people. So kind of, you know, for nonprofits, for small teams, as we're kind of starting to grow and expand, like, where's kind of the first place where we start to think of like, you know, okay, we might have some more marketing things that we need to do. We might need to systemize, systematize us a little bit more, be more intentional. And where do we start with that? So

Kasper Siervslev
traditionally, in housing and all that, that started, you know, when you said, I need a graphic designer to do this, because I, I can't wait to hire someone external just to do these things around So traditionally, that's where it started. Then I would say, you know, just to be historical about it. Then in the, you know, coming along social media, that's the next step, because that was something where we needed to do something fast. And then in the last five years, we really see, you know, top level creative people moving in house. But, but if you're a small company and you want to start, I would say, you know, the copywriter especially, it depends on what you're on, what you're doing. You know the kind of business you're in, but, but the more complex, the more you need your own copywriter to understand what you're doing, because there's so much copy and and I would say, even with AI, you need someone to be the editor of that. So, so maybe the digital graphic designer and the copywriter, someone you know that would be my small dream team, if I was only to build a two team setup and scale from from that,

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
yeah, yeah. Well, because I think what's important that you mentioned is like, even if you're bringing somebody on board to do copywriting or or social media or whatever, that storytelling piece, that voice, even using AI, like, understanding how you want to present yourself is really important. So I would love maybe if you could share some examples of or just some thoughts around you know, you can bring somebody internally, there's a training process, but if you hire an agency, there's still a training process. And I think we tend to think that if we hire faster through an agency, that will get more done faster, and we forget about that training process and the coaching and like that. We have to let them get to know us, so kind of maybe, what are some pros and cons to both sides

Kasper Siervslev
of Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm not all in house. I think my last book was called Win Win house. So it's actually the best of both worlds. So the pros of in housing, obviously. I mean, if you have a complex product, like when I was at Maersk, you know, understanding global shipping and all the different needs. So car manufacturers had one shipping needs, meat from Australia, going or fish from going to Japan, from Alaska, something like that. All these things you know, you know, it would take ages to onboard an agency, and then as soon as you onboard them, they will shift around. That's my experiences. Yeah, you know, then you would get another team because they were not available for this task and so on, and then you have to start over. So that's, that's really one of the benefits, knowing the bits and pieces. Other things would be in digital, you know, in the digital age, would be, you know, access to the data yourself. So when a copywriter writes something, or a graphic designer, art director does something, actually being able to see is this working? Are people picking up on it and then changing it, not waiting, you know, a week to get a report back and calling the agency? Could we do something? Because then it's too late. The pitfalls of being in houses, of course, that, you know, you get the tunnel vision. So, so, I mean, I worked at a company where we invented our own words, and we talked so much internally about these, this target group, that we thought it was something everybody was talking about until, you know, almost. Having the final campaign. Radiance is a thing people, you know, is this a thing? So, so I think if you're bringing people in house and you're building that in our team, you need to have that outside in perspective. They don't have to do everything. You just have, you know, sometimes you can just buy the ideas or the creative thoughts, having them come in and give your ideas and pay for that and and then do the work yourself. So, so that's definitely, you know, keeping up with trends. It does have a benefit, working at an agency, working with multiple clients and and understanding and seeing trends in other industries and so on. So I think that's the that's, that's the the boat, with the Yeah, not either, or, but, but both,

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
actually, yeah, the internal jargon, I think, is a huge point, because, especially for nonprofit, well, I guess in any business you're in, you're so in the day to day of what you're doing that I love that you just said, Yeah, we thought everybody was talking the same language as we are. Nobody knows that I do the same thing. You know, I'll often forget. I'll just say something like SEO, which feels so normal to me. And I'll always still be shocked when somebody's like, wait, what does that stand for? Or, like, even AI. People are like, well, I don't know. AI tools. We don't use it. So I think that's really important, yeah, and also that outside perspective, so is there like a middle grade, like, if we wanted to hire somebody, maybe internal so that we can kind of do things more quickly, but also have kind of external like, how do we manage that balance for our teams to stay on trend and stay out there.

Kasper Siervslev
So, when, when? So now we're running our own agencies, and we have people coming in, but before that, we were really transparent and open about it, and and calling some of the agencies and says, are you okay with, you know, us just paying whatever you you know, let's, let's find something that we both think is a great deal, and we pay for, for your knowledge, for your time. But we don't want you to go back to your lab and do a big campaign and come back with the whole ta da thing. We want you to sit in a meeting room over there, next to us and work, and we can ask you questions, and we can see, you know, the work. So, so we kind of, you know, get in the process, and if you're going in a wrong direction, that would be, you know, that let's just stop it there, and on black ink and white paper level, so to speak. So, so that's what, what, what, what we did in the in the first couple of companies, is, you know, you know, contacting creative people agencies, or even, you know, film directors or something like that. Say, do you want to come in and work together with us and then figure out a fair price for for everything? So you're not, it's not like you're cheating anyone. It's just, you know, you want to get what they're good at, not necessarily their production company or something.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
Okay, so if I'm hearing you, it could be something also, like having your generalist marketing person in house and contracting with other agencies for those specific things. Like maybe you need video production for an upcoming Gala, or maybe you need a specific type of, type of fundraising marketing professional to come in for a specific campaign. So maybe you have your foundational things running in house, and then you can utilize some of these other specialists for some of these campaigns that are maybe shorter term or much more specific in nature. Yeah,

Kasper Siervslev
definitely. I mean, we always recommend to do the really boring math. So kind of you know, see, how much, how much do you need these people? You know, is it? Is it better to buy an expert for one week externally than having them in house? And you know, they are drying out because they don't really get challenged then, I mean, go externally. But if you are, you know, if you're buying a graphic designer on a freelance basis every week. Why not hire them and actually train them and put them on your you know, your your systems and tools and your computers and so on. So, so you can utilize them, them better, and train people and so on. So, so, so it's really the math part. That's, I mean, it's kind of boring, some of the stuff I'm saying, but, but it's really looking at, you know, how much are you are you using people? What are they? What are they doing? What kind of assets do we want to do? Or are you doing? How fast do we want to go to markets? I mean, for some customers, it's very important to do something. You know, we work with car brands, and when Tesla lowers the price, then we have to do something. End of Day, we have to be in market with something that's very difficult with an external agency, and you have to call them up. I mean, that's. Old Fashioned but and say, you know, can we have something so that makes a lot of sense to have someone in house for that. Other times, it's complexity, knowing a product or knowing different markets where or different customer types and so on, and different behavior where, you know, an external agency would struggle. That would be difficult. On the other hand, if you're going to a lot of different markets, it makes a lot of sense to call the the German PR agency. Who knows all about, you know, German roofs, or Spanish roofs, or Mexican you know, building structure. So you don't have all these experts in house. So I think it's, I mean, it sounds it is stupid, but it's really simple. Really looking at what kind of content do we want to do? How fast do you want to do it? And then say, Okay, then. But in my experience, not a lot of companies are actually doing that. They're more like, oh, let's do this, and let's do that, and and then hire something for for that, and then the other department is doing something different over here. So

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
yeah, well, I think what you're getting to is it's all about what is what did we actually say we were going to do this year? What do we need to do to get there? Who do we have that can do the work, and who are we potentially going to need to help support that work? And I think, you know, one of the things that was said to me years ago was, if you're doing the same task more than three times, then it's time to automate. And I think you're saying a similar thing here. If you're doing the same thing over and over, then it's time to bring it in house, and if you're doing it maybe only once or twice a year, then it's time to bring in an agency or a consultant that can kind of help elevate it to the next level.

Kasper Siervslev
Yeah. And so we do a lot of mapping out processes, again, the really boring stuff to get to the creative stuff. So really say, you know, what's the optimal process for this? What, what kind of gates do we need? So let's say we bring in that external agencies and say we only want pen and paper, you know, ideas at this stage, and then we bring in our CEO to say, you know, if, if they like an idea on pen and paper, I'm sure it will be great when you shoot it on, you know, film and everything, and then you have a gate saying, This is what we need to decide now, what kind, you know, have the playbooks for the whole year say this is the kind of things we want to do. These are the assets we need to create. You know, we're creating these every month, so maybe we need to hire someone to do it, because that's definitely cheaper and faster and also probably better in terms of consistency of, you know, look and feel and everything so, so a lot of things is, I mean, there's nothing rocket science and what I'm saying, it's just really, really common sense, but, But, I don't think a lot of marketing organizations are really, you know, digging into this and looking at, you know, how do we, how do we get more time to do the creative, the fun stuff? I mean, that's the whole idea of doing marketing, is to get to do something that people will recognize instead of getting swamped in meetings. And yeah, redo as well.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
Yeah, well. And I love this concept that you keep bringing up of like we want to get back to the point where we can encourage and harness the creative. So I agree with you. I think when we get stuck in the mundane, we when we you know, you keep saying the process is boring the process, but if we don't have the process, then we don't open up the brain space to be able to allow for the creative to happen. We don't have the time frame for the creative to happen. We're just like, you know, now all of a sudden, we're just trying to execute our email newsletter, and we're just trying to get something out for the sake of getting it out, versus we're thinking about how this fits into the bigger picture, and how we're going to drive people through our process and continue to encourage them to buy or repeat buy or donate or whatever. And so I think, I think that I love that that's kind of the theme that I'm hearing through everything you're saying. But it can feel, I think, maybe a little overwhelming to people to think, Okay, well, now I have to have an internal marketing person and maybe have some external and that's a lot to manage. So how do we kind of start to think about the types of people we might want to hire? Like, what? What skills or questions? And this is a very loaded, vague question, no, no,

Kasper Siervslev
I think it. It kind of goes back to having the the yearly plan, let's you know, which is basically Mark basic marketing, saying, What do we want to do? Maybe even having, like an ambition to be thought leaders, or being in this field, and say, Okay, these are the the events we want to do this year. This is the supporting act. Activities we want to do. We want to do podcasts. We want to do blog posts. And, you know, don't spread yourself too thin. Pick out a few things that you can actually manage and say, and then start looking at how last time we did a podcast, how much time did we actually spend on preparing, editing, doing the interview and so on. Yeah, that took a lot, you know. Could we do something, you know? Could we have a plan for it next time so it's not something that comes up? Yeah, we could probably do that. Could we use the content in different ways? Yeah, so and so. It doesn't take that much time. It's, I would say a week or two weeks efficiency in the efficiently in, in January, February, where we are now to to to map this out for the whole year, and do these, you know, points, and then say, Okay, how much time and effort doing is do we need for this? How can we reuse the content, or can we use it in another way? And of course, then pick out also something, you know, fun. So we're not, you know, getting swarmed. And what I experience is also try to produce. You know, not not sitting and waiting, but producing. If you're doing newsletters. I mean, you probably know what you're gonna do next week and next week again. So so a lot of that you could actually produce three or four newsletters in a bulk. It's much easier once you go you're in that role to do the next one and so on. So what I mean, that's what I seen a lot of social media teams. You know, every day they come in and say, oh, what should we do now, instead of producing,

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
yes, no, 100% well, and you mentioned like, we're recording this in February. This episode doesn't go live until April, and so that's a very prime example of like we are fully batching content ahead of time, so that we give ourselves the space to do what you just said, right? So those systems become even more important, and also as we've kind of because, I mean, this is episode 298 so we're coming up on Episode 300 but we did not get to our process in episode one like it has continued to be refined. We've continued to add support and how we kind of run that process. So I think what I love about what you're saying is that that flexibility to say, Okay, well, we're going to bring somebody in to do this, but then we might need to hire some out side sources to help us with where we're at right now. We might bring it back in house. We might move it out, but at the end of the day, you're still working on your consistent systems, because it is your organization you own that that process, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Kasper Siervslev
Because, I mean, so you're still working on the same stream, you have the same playbooks and plans and so on. And then you can, you know, adjust and refine, you know, all the bits and pieces, you know, and then the steps in between, say, Okay, this worked really well last time. Should we try it again? Or should we try something different? So it is, and, yeah, it sounds so boring when you say it. And so, you know, it's very common. It's, it's just because, in the long

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
run, when, when

Kasper Siervslev
you keep, you know, meeting people, and say, and you say, Oh, how are you doing this? Yeah, we really don't know. You know, every, you know, we come every and every day and say, What should we do on, you know, what's today's campaign? And, yeah, and it's just a really, really stupid way to work, because you waste a lot of time in meetings and, you know, and not decisions and so on so

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
And okay, so let's jump into, oh, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Sorry. Oh, I was just gonna say, let's jump into like, if we are talking to agencies or consultants to bring them in to our organization, they're gonna also come in with their own processes and systems and way for how or ways that they work, strategies that they have. So as we're kind of interviewing people, how can we what types of questions can we ask, or how can we engage with them to make sure that we're the right fit to work with each other? Because that's sometimes really hard. It doesn't you know, the work that they do is one thing. They're the results that they give you, but you still need to find partners that you can work together with synergistically.

Kasper Siervslev
Oh, that's a great question. I mean, I'm really a big fan of working on the ideas separately from the production. I think a lot of you know, especially when you work with these, you know, one man, Army camera guys or smaller agencies, you know, they have their own ways of doing everything. And it's a bit, you know, secret black box thing you don't really know. And I'm really in favor of doing the transparent model, where you say, I mean, it's okay. You go back and you come back with some ideas, and so on. But let's, let's work together. I mean, most people go into marketing because they like marketing. If they just wanted, you know, do spreadsheets and and writing checks to any checks to agencies, they know they would probably be in accounting. So, so we do this because, I mean, the in house Product Marketing Manager, Head of Marketing, they they know the business. They know their clients, probably better than the agencies. So, so you should work together. That's the benefit of working, not necessarily in house, but with an in house team. So it's, you know, I would really much, you know, I'm a big fan of telling people up front say, could you work like this? Can you work with, you know, bringing in ideas on this level. We can be on a retainer or whatever, but I don't need you to, you know, to do all the fancy stuff. I mean, maybe, but that's, that's a different project. Now I'm buying the idea from you, the the film, the script, or something like that. Then we talk about who should produce it and so on. So. So instead of going to these big companies where you get everything and you don't really know what what you're paying for, and in my experience, you're you get the junior work for the senior price. Yeah, I'm getting a lot of enemies, and with this is probably but, but in no

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
but, I mean, I think it's your it's it's transparency and communication, and we work that way too. I think it's the over communication. I think when you're a smaller business and you're entering into a conversation with an agency, the feeling is that, well, they must know better than we do, and so you might take a back seat, because you don't feel like maybe they know better than you, so you should just do whatever they say, whereas I love what you're saying, that if we both come to the table with this is what we need, this is where we're going, and here's my ideas, and let's have a conversation about you're going To get much better results in a much better partnership from whomever you're working with,

Kasper Siervslev
yeah, and you know, if they know something from a different, you know, industry, because that's the benefit of working with them, then, then they could just say, we know this. We just done this for another client. This is a great idea. And just tell it like it is, and show that case they don't, you know, they don't need to come back with everything and the whole, yeah, flipping cardboard idea, like, you know, Mad Men stuff. I don't think anyone does that anymore, but, but so, so, I mean, sit down book, spend time together, go away on in a hotel room or a meeting room for a week, and work work closely together, and you know, the company comes with the insights of customers and and if there's something you know you need to figure out along the way, then you have the people who can call them or go back to sales and figure out what Are people actually saying so I'm really a big fan of this. You know, working really closely together, not necessarily 100% in house, but working as as one team. It's, it's yeah, it's, it's yeah, it's easy. So

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
good. Okay, well, if there's anything else that you might want to leave as kind of something to think about, with regards to the concept around external information, ideas from your insular team, kind of, what advice might you have to the power of higher and I say this, although this is what I do for a living, so I'm an external person, so This is not a sales pitch for me or people to help you whatever. I mean, I do. I do think there's very strong value in that. So I would just love for you to maybe, like, say, share a little bit kind of a mindset thing of like, why this can be really powerful for organizations. Well,

Kasper Siervslev
I'm an external too, right? So, so we come in and build in house agencies and help companies with this. So, so I'm so I'm probably not selling it the best way. But another thing I would say, I mean, trust the idea, I think that's especially the last 10-15, years, you know, everything's been performance marketing and looking at the data and the last click, and what I'm really seeing the last couple of years is, you know, the greater the idea, not necessarily expensive or anything, but just a really creative way of doing things that people will notice is What actually moves the needle. So don't get swamped in in doing social media posts every day. If they are boring, then cut out some and do something that's that's better. So I would really say, you know, trust the creative idea, and that's, you know, spend some time on that. You know, figure out your processes so you don't. Spend too much time in the last part of it and have more time to do the great creative ideas, because I really think creativity works so

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
good. Yeah, it's definitely what helps you stand out amongst the noise, for sure. Well, Kasper, this has been amazing. If people want to connect with you, learn more about how you support companies and engage with you. How do they

Kasper Siervslev
do that? Well, our company is called zite.agency, so I can leave a note, or they could go every year I have we publish a report called the in house parameter, where we we survey 100,000 No, 1000 1000 people, I think, are around the world about in housing trends, what to do, what not to do, the biggest issues with in house agencies, and, of course, also some benefits. And the next one is actually coming out in April. So, so, so it's probably, it's called the in house parameter. You can probably just Google that or find it inhouseparameter.com. I think,

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
well, we'll link all of that up in the show notes at thefirstclick.net/298, so you can grab all of those links as well. But Kasper, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your insights. Your insights today. Thank

Kasper Siervslev
you for having me. It was fun.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern
Okay, so what was your biggest takeaway from this episode? Kasper was such a great guest, and I'm so grateful for him for coming to share his insight. You can grab all of the resources and show notes at thefirstclick.net/298 we are so close to 300 and it's going to be a fun one. But for now, make sure you subscribe wherever you listen, and if you're watching on YouTube, comment below with your favorite takeaway, what was the one thing that you learned or something that you're excited to implement now leave us a review. It just helps us get this podcast in front of more nonprofit professionals that could really use support in their fundraising. And as always, thank you so much for listening and joining us today on the digital marketing therapy podcast, I appreciate you so much for taking time to listen to me every week, and I will see you in the next one.