Ep 250 | The Value of Messaging with John Gumas

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Email is a great strategy for any organization. However, if you don't get the messaging right then it misses the mark. Understanding the way you share your organizations impact, through the eyes of your audience, can lead to much better results. Learn how to refine your messaging and increase the engagement from your emails in this episode.

What you'll learn:

→ common mistakes people make with their email.
→ how value in your emails can increase your open rates and engagement.
→ messaging isn't just about emails.
→ how to understand the language your audience uses.
→ resist the urge to sell.

Want to skip ahead? Here are key takeaways:

[5:58] Messaging matters, and most organizations assume what their audience wants to hear. Spoiler alert – they are usually wrong! Its hard to step outside your organization to truly see it from the perspective of your audience. It comes down to understanding the words they use and using them yourselves.
[10:39] When you prioritize adding value in your emails it builds trust. This allows them to understand what is coming and that its about them. It will increase the likelihood they open the next one because they know they aren't being sold to. Then follow your analytics to see what stories and value resonate most with your audience.
[18:26] When you take the time to refine your messaging, it doesn't just affect your emails. It should be utilized in all your communications. This includes your website, social media posts, one-on-one conversations and more! 
[19:13] Interview your audience to learn what they think about your organization. This works best with phone interviews so they can be more open and honest. Look at common responses and start to craft your language. Remember that people connect to emotion so really pull out the stuff people are sharing. Resist the jarbog.


[book] Challenger Brand Marketing Book
Ep 221 | Creating a Language Guide
EP 222 |What are you Famous For? with Craig Alexander

John Gumas

John Gumas

Founder, Gumas Advertising

A veteran of the advertising and interactive marketing industry, John founded Gumas Advertising in 1984. Today, the award-winning firm is consistently named as one of the top branding and interactive marketing firms by the California Business Times.

John is recognized as one of the country’s foremost authorities on challenger brand marketing. He is the author of the popular books “Marketing Smart” and “Challenger Brand Marketing” which describe how challenger brands can effectively develop marketing strategies to take on their larger competitors. In addition, John has been an adjunct professor of branding, advertising and interactive marketing, a sought after speaker and a regular columnist for several publications and blogs.

John currently sits on many boards, including the San Francisco Giants, The San Francisco Chamber of Commerce, San Francisco State University Foundation, The Greater San Francisco Advertising Club, The Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame and The Elios Society.

John was recently inducted into the San Francisco State University Hall of Fame, and was Alumnus of the Year. John has also been recognized for his extensive community service and leadership by the U.S. Senate and the San Francisco Giants.Learn more at https://gumas.com

March lead magnet - Fundraising Event Email Checklist: Ensuring Success Before and After the Event

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Fundraising Event Email Checklist: Ensuring Success Before and After the Event

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Full Transcript

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 0:00
When it comes to your marketing, messaging matters, it's how you connect with people. It's how they build trust with you. It's how they engage with you. It's how they decide if you're the right organization for them or someone else's. And while you might be thinking about this from a social media standpoint, or maybe even a long form content standpoint, it's super important when it comes to your emails, especially if you're sending them regularly. We want to build on that emotion want to build on that connection, so that they really keep opening future emails, right. They know there's value in there that they're excited to hear about. And so today, my guest is John Gomez, and he's here to talk about all things email messaging strategy. A veteran of the advertising and interactive marketing industry, John founded Google advertising in 1984. The day the award winning firm is consistently named as one of the top branding and interactive marketing firms by the California Business Times. John is recognized as one of the country's foremost authorities on challenger brand marketing. He is the author of the popular book marketing, smart and challenger brand marketing, which describes how challenger brands can effectively develop marketing strategies to take on their larger competitors. In addition, John has been the adjunct professor of branding, advertising and interactive marketing, a sought after speaker and a regular columnist for several publications and blogs. John currently sits on many boards, including the San Francisco Giants, the San Francisco Chamber of Commerce, the San Francisco University Foundation, the greater San Francisco advertising club, the Bay Area, Sports Hall of Fame and the Helios society. John was recently inducted into the San Francisco State University Hall of Fame and was Alumni of the Year. John has also been recognized for his extensive community service and leadership by the US Senate and the San Francisco Giants. So we did an episode with his business partner all about challenger brand marketing. So we will link that up in the show notes for this episode. So if you want to check that out, because we don't really talk about challenger brand marketing a ton in this episode, but for a lot of you nonprofits, it's a great conversation to have. Because it's all about how do you get up and above the noise? How do you separate yourself out from your competitors, who may have more budget, more resources more, whatever. So definitely give that one a check. And you can view the show notes at the first click dotnet slash 250. Okay, so enjoy this conversation. Think about the messaging and the way that we talk to our donors, you can use this information not just in your email, but in your marketing as a whole. So I think you'll find this episode super helpful. But before we get into it, this episode is brought to you by our March freebie, you know this by now if you've been listening, right? The March freebie is all about the emails that you need to send before so getting people to attend register come to your event, once they've registered with important event information to encourage that they show up at the event. And afterwards, the follow up that you're going to you're going to be giving them to share the impact that the event has created. Give them another chance to give and just follow up. So we've created a guide with all of those broken down for you the different types of emails and who they should be sent to. So you can get that at the first click.net/resources. I hope that you enjoy this freebie. And if you've got an event coming up, it's something that you can use, for sure. So let's get into the episode. You're listening to the digital marketing therapy podcast. I'm your host, Sammy Fidel Mulhern. Each month we dive deep into a digital marketing or fundraising strategy that you could implement in your organization. Each week, you'll hear from guest experts, nonprofits, and myself on best practices, tips and resources to help you raise more money online and reach your organization's goals. Hey, everybody, join me in welcoming John Gomez to the podcast John thank you for being here. Shami

John Gumas 3:51
super nice to be with you.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 3:52
Um, I love email marketing. It's one of my most favorite topics. So before we jump into some tactics today, I'd love to hear from you why it's one of your favorite times.

John Gumas 4:02
It is because if you do it right, it works. And it's a very cost effective way to to make things happen for any company and you know, like, like, like all media in marketing, there are do's and don'ts right? There are things that that that will make your email marketing work significantly better. But it's it's interesting, it's a very dangerous form of media on the other side too. Because if you break some of the rules and you don't do it right that that prospect is done with you forever right so you can you can backfire on you if you don't do it right. And what makes it scary is it's so easy to do. And and you know many times companies think they can they they know and they do it and it backfires on him. So that's something that that we can talk about. But you know, companies really need to watch out for as well because it's so easy to have that happen.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 4:55
Yeah, well, and I think there's lots of different tactics to consider and I know we're going to talk About one in particular today, but before we kind of jump into that, you know, I feel like with a lot of these marketing tactics, especially in the digital space, people will say, Well, that doesn't work for my business or my industry. Are there any industries that you would say email can't be effective in?

John Gumas 5:18
Well, you? I off the top of my head, I can't think of one because if they do it way, I can't think of one that wouldn't benefit from it. You know, every industry is different, depending on who your clients are, what they expect and everything. But if no, so, there's a long answer to your question is no.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 5:41
No, I agree with that. Okay, so you already mentioned that email can be really powerful, but it can also, you know, hurt you if you're kind of putting the right strategy behind it. So maybe could you give us a couple of mistakes are common mistakes that you see people make, though,

John Gumas 5:58
to the one I see most often is more clients, they assume they know what their audience needs to hear, they assume they do. And that's kind of a normal thing to have happen. Because most, most businesses, you know, CEOs, company owners, etc, live and breathe that company every single day. So when you do that, it's impossible right? To step outside, and look at your company like like a prospective new customer or an existing customer would. So as a result of that creates this natural trap that you assume you think you know, what they need to hear. And part of our process is we take clients through a discovery program to figure out exactly what it is we need to say to their, to their clients. When we go through this process. 100% of time I've been doing this for two years. So 40th anniversary 100% of the time, Sammy, not 90, not 95, not 99 100% of the time, what our clients think they need to say to their clients, their customers, is not exactly what their customers need to hear them say. So with that said, if you say the right thing to the right person in the right way, it doesn't matter what you do, right? Direct mail, email, marketing, social media, it doesn't matter. It's never going to resonate. So we try is to folks really understand who your audience is and what they need to hear you say? And how can you say that in a unique way, right, unique from all your competitors, and to get people to actually respond. So until you do that, it's really kind of hard to, to really look at the tactical elements of of anything.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 7:42
Yeah. And so does that start with like, really understanding the pain point because I similar to you, I have this conversation with all of my clients, and that they always just want to say, well, this is the end result, if you work with us, this is what will happen, your life will be changed, or you'll save the environment or what I mean whatever, like they go to the solution, when the audience like hasn't even decided, like they they're still dealing with like pain point number one, like they haven't actually gotten all the way to where they're ready for that solution yet. So is it really kind of understanding, like you mentioned who your audience is, but what, what it is? Yeah,

John Gumas 8:18
it is. And I would even add to that is it's understanding what are the actual words you have to use to get them to go? That's exactly what I'm looking for? How did you know that's what I was looking for? Well, that very rarely happens by accident. It happens by asking your customers and your prospective customers the right questions in the right order in order for them to give you that information. And until you have that it's hard. But I think you know, with with email marketing in particular, you have to understand that you're invading somebody's private space. Right? You're invading, right their their their, their their home, you're walking in their home. So what is it that is going to allow them to invite you into the home? So I you know, the one thing that that we see is the one of the no no's is don't sell, don't hard sell, especially at the beginning. Because think about it. When you when you know, anywhere in our lives, you're live my life, you know that your listeners lives. When somebody starts to sell you something. That's the moment you kind of step back and go, Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, I'm not sure if I trust this person. I'm not sure what they have to say is in my best interest. I know, I'm just a little leery. When that happens, you're done. Alright, you're done. And it doesn't matter what you say or how you say it at that point. They're not going to listen to you. So this idea of don't sell and generating trust is is really critical. It's really critical. So and I think that's the that's one of the traps that people fall into, right? Hey, I'm going to sell something because they're going to want to buy it. I would think about that. strategy? Yeah,

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 10:01
well, I think in the nonprofit space, the trap in alignment with what you just said, The trap is, well, I don't want to send emails to all my donors because I don't want to harass them or bombard them, you know, I don't want to be annoying. So then the only time that they email them is when they're in a fundraising campaign. So all they're doing is selling, they're never sending them. stories or impact, or, you know, doing that trust factor, like what you said, because they have this feeling that if I send them emails on a weekly or monthly basis, now I'm being annoying. So it's less annoying to just send them an email when I want to raise money, which is crazy. I agree.

John Gumas 10:39
You know, it's, it's, it's about value. So think about what we try to tell our clients as and when we're doing these email campaigns for them, when we try to tell them is we need to earn their trust, we need to earn that time they just gave us so they invite us back for the next one. So you know, we're big, we're big fans of the whole concept. I'm sure you're very familiar with Thought Leadership, thought leadership, what is it say, in the case of a nonprofit, we have lots of nonprofit clients, and we help them, you know, figure out what is and they all have this very unique position. What's, you know, what is it that you do to help the world? What do you do to help your community? What is it, so you don't have to sell donations, you have to earn that by telling these stories, positioning the organization as the expert in this, we're the only ones that do this, this is how we help you, the community, the world, etc, you're not selling. But in essence, what you are doing is you're selling without selling, right. And that's a big, big differentiation there, you know, whether you sell give me money, give me money. Or you can talk about all the wonderful things you do and the impact that has on the lives in which it touches. That's the best selling you can possibly do. And not only is it good generates trust, it generally positions is the organization or you as the individual as the thought leader invites them back because okay, what I just read, what I just saw was really moving, or was very informative, or I learned something that was incredible. That was great. All right, so you've just engaged, and the engagement is critical. It's a very critical component of email marketing, because without engagement, it's you know, it's just, you're never gonna get that return, you're never gonna get that this success. So I think that those are very important elements.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 12:32
Well, and engagement in email, like talk a little bit more about what that looks like, because I think that is one of the big differences, even though storytelling is something that should permeate through all of your marketing and understanding who your audience is, should permeate, permeate all your marketing, that engagement piece can look very different in in the different platforms. So like, what what types of things might we want to be looking at as far as like, hey, is this story or type of communication? It resonating more with our audience than another? No,

John Gumas 13:02
it'd be the ultimate test, right? The ultimate test is the results, your analytics How well did that that story resume, right? How many people looked at how many people clicked on the link how many whatever your your your metrics are, right? track that and you learn so so the stories and engage more, you want to do things very similar to that. But again, it's it's understanding your audience, it's not selling to your audience, it's being a thought leader. But it's also looking closely at the analytics analytics are critical, because he because you want to get better and better and better with each mail, each email you send out, alright, and then then you start talking about frequency, right? When is it when you know, too often or not enough? You know, so there's a real fine line, it's almost an art form, it's not really a science, it's an art form, because every company is different, right in terms of their audience and how much information their audience wants to consume from you. So you don't want to send your emails out so often that you become a bother and people you know, I don't want to hear from them anymore. But then you don't want to send them out too distant to where they forget you in between. So there is you know, there is this fine line, but those are the things that you just have to test and look at and and be wary of as you're doing this. You know, a good rule of thumb and this isn't strictly a general general rule of thumb is around every 30 day ish, you know, maybe a little earlier for some a little later for others, but kind of kind of in there. You can send them out more often if you if you think you have content that's worthy. Or if you think you have news to break or you have a you know, something that warrants something more a little more often. But you can't look desperate, right? You can't you can't you're doing a service and that's how you have to look at your email you're doing the the recipient a service, they're inviting you in their home. It's no different thing about walking through the front door sitting down in their living room and having a chat with them, if you walk in there and say, hey, I want to sell you some Amway stuff, you know, I'm guessing you may not be invited back, right. But if you sat down and you you respected them, and you respected their time and their intelligence, and you had a conversation, where we're at the end of that conversation, the recipients and wow, that was worth my time, that was really interesting. We know, they will invite you back. So that, you know, that's, that's, that's what we tried to tell our clients, that's kind of the most the model that you think of when you're doing email marketing, because like all digital marketing, it's so easy for them to click that button that says, delete, you know, want to hear from you anymore, do not get back to me. And that's because you haven't done a good enough job of showing them the value of your communication.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 15:48
Yeah, and I think, you know, if you're just getting started, you might have one master list, but as your email marketing is you grow as you expand as you kind of build part of that right message right time, right person, the storytelling cadence can also change with segmentation, right, like understanding like these people, this group of people cares about care about our children's programming, this group of people care about our senior citizens programming, these people care about our, you know, young adult programming, and like being able to really then send specific messages to those audiences. So they're getting what they care about, and not getting bombarded with stuff that

John Gumas 16:27
they you're absolutely right. And that's kind of the ultimate goal, right? That's the ultimate place you want to be. But you know, with every new vertical, every new list segment, right becomes another messaging exercise in itself. So you know, you as, as you expand your list, you have to you have to expand your your messaging as well. So I think every organization has to ask themselves are we do we have the capability to do that, because you got to be careful, if you don't, you don't want to get yourself in a position where you can't do it, you do it wrong. versus you know, doing that, yeah, and the other, you know, the real common form of communication tools, you know, the classic, you know, e newsletter, where, you know, the the the audience recipient kind of self selects what they want, because there is a cat, you know, there is a category of story on on the kids, there is a category of story on the community there is, so they kind of self select. And so that's kind of a faster, easier way, not as as as effective, as you described, right? Where you segment the list. But still, I think it comes down to the reality of can you do it, and Don't overextend yourself right to where you you can't do whatever the execution is correctly. Yeah.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 17:47
Okay. So I want to go back to kind of how you started this conversation in that messaging can be done wrong, if we're not talking to the right people. So if we're like, okay, I want to do a review of what we're talking about. We want to try to we have we have a goal to increase our versions, whatever that conversion looks like for you. You know, if Can we just go talk to our donors and say, like, what about this email? Did you like or did you not like, like, how can we kind of start to go through that process of refining our messaging, understanding the words the language that we're using, and kind of do better with regards to that?

John Gumas 18:26
I would, I would caution on that, from the perspective of this is the whole messaging approach is not just for email marketing, the whole messaging approach is for your entire brand, right? So your entire brand, whatever the tactics, you use, should should use the same that the same strategy, we're talking about the same messaging. And I can tell you how we go. So we have a process, I'll go through very quickly not to bore anybody here. So we refer to it as a discovery. So we will speak to our clients clients, because they're the most critical source of data that we can find because they have all gone through the process that choose our clients, right? They there was there was something about our client that they chose. So what we do is we interview their clients, not all of them, we only need sometimes just a dozen or so may little or little less, little more. And we interview them on the telephone. And we do it specifically on the telephone because in a visual setting like this, you're intimidated, right? You're looking at somebody, you get a little intimidated. In a focus group, there tends to be one or two people that dominate everything and everyone else so you never get everyone's true thoughts. But on a telephone call, one on one, you really have the opportunity, especially if you ask the right types of questions. You really get the opportunity to pull out the truth, the real reason why they chose to support that nonprofit they chose to buy from that organization. They chose to hire that company. If you get that that true true information, then what you we start to see consistencies. So that's the first segment of interviews. The second segment we do is, is internally, because when you're when you're looking at a brand and messaging, you can't create that that brand message that is not true to the essence of who that organization is. So we do similar format of messaging to our clients themselves, everyone from the CEO down to marketing folks to whoever the key people are, because we need to understand the essence of their brand. And what really comes out of that is what our clients think, and what their customers or donors think, do not line up. And so that's part of the alignment, right? And the third piece, just to make it fun, what we do is we analyze their most key competitors, what are they saying? How are they saying it? All right, what's their message, because when you're out there, you got to understand, especially when it comes to new prospects, they have choices, they have choices, so we have to understand how they're positioning themselves. So from those three main points of data, right, in the middle lies the essence of who this organization is the truth. And then we take that data, and that's when we create, that's when we create the messaging, right the messaging and messaging can be is from, you know, elevator pitch all the way down to a tagline everything in between. And, you know, and then it that's when that's when your marketing really starts to work, because now you're saying the right thing. So the right people.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 21:31
Yeah, and we've done an episode on kind of creating a language Guide, which is kind of similar to what you're talking about here. So I'll make sure to link that up in the show notes if people want more of a deep dive into kind of what that looks like and how you create something. But I want to touch on because I love that this is like a multifaceted approach that it's not just about what your clients think. But it's what internally how people are talking about it. I've worked with so many different organizations where the way the development team talks about something is completely different marketing team is completely different from the admin team. So when we all come together for meetings, everybody gets confused. But also, a lot of times the language we're going to get back from our customers, donors clients is maybe a little bit more casual, it's not going to be using the technical terms. It's definitely not jargon. So as we kind of come back to our leadership in our in our organization, and we say, okay, these are the words that we're finding people are using when they talk about us, there's pushback there sometimes. So how do we kind of work through that and determine our voice as an organization, but also wanting to connect with the people that we're serving or

John Gumas 22:41
looking to become number one, the number one way you're ever going to connect with anyone is through emotion. It's not through technical jargon, or it's not through mathematical formulas. It's, it's through emotion. And it's especially at the beginning, because all of most of what we do, especially when it comes to prospecting for new clients, new donors, is about connecting and starting a conversation. All right, you can at some point, you know, after 10 conversations, you can go through a mathematical formula, whatever you want at that point, but at the beginning, it's emotional, it's connecting and that type of jargon that you describe is emotional. It connects to wow, there's an organization I want to be part of there's organizations doing great things for the community. There's an organization that can really help my company whatever you're trying to do. It's it's critical and that messaging comes from the prospect right it's again what we said earlier you have to say what they need to hear you say because when they need when they hear what they think they need to hear that's when they go Where have you been I've been looking for you it's exactly what I need doesn't happen by accident in rare rare rare cases you know, you stumble upon it but typically doesn't happen by accident. And you discover that through the process because once you know that everything works better not just your your email marketing, everything works better because now when somebody sees something you do, whether it's social media, email marketing, you name it, they the same response

that's exactly what I'm looking for. So that's you know, yeah,

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 24:15
I love that and I know I'm sorry. Oh, I was just gonna say if you are like okay, well I don't know where to start now. I'm like thinking rethinking about all of my platforms. Like even if you start with your email, like let's say you do a monthly or BI monthly email that goes out to your audience that storytelling that's general value add those you know, putting your efforts into one of a longer form kind of content piece can then you just duplicate and take that and repurpose it and utilize that across all the other channels you don't have to come up with new for all of those different Yeah, you're

John Gumas 24:51
absolutely right and that's that's the smart way to do it. Especially like think of that's just a an example. So you do it every month. That's exactly what you want to do a one month right you have a A piece of content, you're focusing on a position A, A thought leadership platform you're focusing on, and you take that and repurpose it, your YouTube video, your, you know, your, your podcast, your email marketing, your social media, you know, whatever it is you have in your arsenal of marketing tactics, yes, you do that, and it becomes very efficient, and you're essentially surrounding your audience. So your audience now sees and hears the same message all over, and it resonates with them, because you need to tell people more than once. Right? And, and that is, that is a tactic we use all the time. And it's very, very smart tactic. And it's very cost effective tactic as well. Right?

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 25:37
Because if you're a smaller team, and you don't, you don't have to create brand new things all the time, I think we write down kind of a game plan of like, okay, if I write one blog post, like this is the whole checklist of everything, and it can generate, you know, 20, some other pieces of content that you can use for the whole month. So now, you as a nonprofit, no longer have an excuse for I don't have time for you. Yeah, don't

John Gumas 25:59
forget, you know, the search generating content value of all that, right, the, you know, the SEO value of all that, that, you know, now people you know, if they're searching for that topic, you know, your, your white paper, your blog, your whatever it is, comes up. And you know, that's a critical component to the overall marketing mix.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 26:19
I love that. Okay, so I think the moral of the story today is really focus in on who your ideal audience is, what their pain points are, in the words that they use to talk about the incredible work that you do, to start refining your messages and your storytelling. If you know, is there any other kind of tips or strategies that you think are in line with this that I haven't asked about that you'd love to share?

John Gumas 26:44
Just a few rights. First thing I'm gonna emphasize don't sell, right, the best way to sell is not sell. Yeah, and it'd be a thought leader. So I just want to emphasize that because that's important. But specific to email marketing, you know, you want to get to the point, I think, especially when you have two to three seconds to get their attention, keep it short, keep it conversational. If you need a lot of information, you use bullets and so forth versus long. But forgive me for plugging this but we recently wrote a book called challenger brand marketing. And in there's there's chapters in that book that go in detail of not only email marketing, but but a lot of the other tactics, the other strategies that that companies should look at. So it it's way too much to explain in our short time, but in that book, there's, there's, there's incredible detail on what to do, how to do it yourself.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 27:32
Well, and we had your business partner on the podcast last year talking about challenger brand marketing, so we'll make sure to link that up. Thanks. Yeah, um, well, I think so many good things. John, I really appreciate you being here today and sharing your thoughts on messaging, because I do think it's critically important. And I think the more we can show up authentically, and like you said, not sell and not try to, you know, game the system or be super tricky with our marketing, people see that. And they relate to that. And so I love your approach all this, I think it's fantastic and totally aligned with the stories and the messaging that we share on this podcast. So thank you for that. But John, if people want to grab your book, or learn more about your organization, how they can get a hold of

John Gumas 28:24
you, so they go to our website, it's good mysite.com gumas.com. And if they have a question for me, they can email me at Jay gomes@gmail.com. And just mention your name. And I will, I will respond back.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 28:36
I love that. And we'll link all of this up in the show notes at the first click.net/ 250 to five zero. I'm John, thank you so much for being here. You

John Gumas 28:46
see me really enjoyed it was a pleasure.

Sami Bedell-Mulhern 28:48
Thank you again to John for being such an incredible guest and sharing all of his words of wisdom and insight. I love talking about storytelling and messaging and how it can make an impact and how we can think about things from our perspective. Because a lot of times it's hard. We've been in this business for a while or we've been working for organization for a while. We know the intimate details of everything that we do. So remembering to put it in a different mindset is is super helpful and critical. So again, thank you to John for being here. The episode shownotes resources, all of the things are available at the first click.net/ 250 Thank you so much for listening. I enjoy coming to you every single week with this digital marketing therapy podcast. Please make sure you subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss out on this episode or bonus episodes that are coming out during the month. I always watch them live on YouTube at Digital Marketing therapy as well. Not live you can watch the video we don't go live on YouTube. Forget that I said that. Anyway, digital marketing therapy on YouTube. Thank you so much for listening and taking some time with me here and I will see you in the next one.



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