Being known for something is what allows you get a faster path to donations. It makes it clear to people what you do and how you serve. And it builds trust with potential donors because it is clear where the funds will go. While you do lots of things in your organization, be clear in your messaging about the big picture goal of what you do.

What you'll learn:

→ power of storytelling.
→ figuring out your tone.
→ choosing clarity.
→ better understanding clickbait.

Want to skip ahead? Here are key takeaways:

[5:47] Content connects better when there is storytelling involved. This works across industry but especially when it comes to more technical or academic areas of support. People remember stories.
[10:23] Create you brand voice. Understand how you want to sound and the tone of your brand. Do some research to understand how your competitors sound. Take into consideration your ideal audience. Put it all down in a language guide so you can stay consistent. At the end of the day – be authentically you. Do no feel the need to replicate another brand. It's also important to remove jargon and speak in a way that people who don't know what you do can still understand impact.
[20:00] Clarity is the most important thing. You can get cutesy with your language but. notat the expense of it being super clear for people to understand. It always needs to go back to your brand voice. Clarity also comes with a call-to-action that makes a clear next step.
[24:58] Don't use clickbait unless it's genuine and takes people somewhere authentic. Yes we want people to click the link, and a great headline is. away to do that. If you don't send them somewhere they expect to go then you'll get people to bounce from your website, lose trust, and hurt your search engine rankings.

Resources

Digital Marketing Therapy Sessions

Full Transcript

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hey, we're back with another episode in our month all about copywriting. And today we're talking about how you can connect with your audience a little bit more with the writing that you do. Kind of figuring out how you can take all of the things that you've learned this month and put them into practice based off of what your audience wants to hear, not necessarily about what you want to talk about, right, our content and what we're writing needs to connect with people and meet them where they're at. And so that's what this episode is all about. My guest today is Alison Van Halen.

Alison majored in English and psychology without realizing she was getting the perfect degree for content marketing. It wasn't until a few years after she graduated when a family friend asked her to write blog posts for his law firm that she realized she could make money doing what she loves. Fast forward to today. And Allison is still writing blog posts as well as website landing pages and emails, but also integrates SEO and marketing strategy into the content she writes to give her clients their best chance of attracting, engaging and converting their ideal client. So yes, she majored in English. But you know, writing is just something she did for fun and flexed her copywriting muscles to continue to work for clients. Now, she works largely in the law space, but what you're going to really hear from her are some great ideas for how she approaches content creation, how she writes, to make sure that she's connecting with their audience, especially in a space like legal. She's connecting with your audience and making sure that they're getting the value that they need and building trust with that organization, which is something that all nonprofits need to do as well. So I hope that you enjoy this episode, give it a listen.

But before we hop into it, it is brought to you by our digital marketing therapy sessions. These are 30 minute one on one sessions that we can get together on on Zoom, and troubleshoot something that you're stuck on. If it's new content ideas, if it's proofreading, some copy that you're about to put out, is it helping you write a landing page, whatever it might be? Or maybe it's social media questions or website questions. Anything in the digital marketing space is fair game, even if it's all about how do you get yourself organized and make time to create some of the strategies that you're learning about. So you can go to https://thefirstclick.net/officehours, check it out. And I'd love to get on the phone and help troubleshoot and give you a little bit of digital marketing therapy so that you can keep moving and hitting your goals and increasing your impact. Let's get into the episode.

[Intro] You're listening to the digital marketing therapy podcast. I'm your host, Sami Bedell-Mulhern. Each month we dive deep into a digital marketing or fundraising strategy that you can implement in your organization. Each week, you'll hear from guest experts, nonprofits, and myself on best practices, tips and resources to help you raise more money online and reach your organizational goals.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hey, everybody, please join me in welcoming my guest today. Alison Van Halen. Alison, thanks for being here today. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. And we're talking about something that we're both mutually passionate about, which is content and copywriting and using it to really connect with your audience. So before we kind of jump into some strategies, why don't you share with the audience a little bit about why content is such a fun topic for you.

[Alison Ver Halen] So I completely fell into this business. I've always, always loved writing, I always wanted to be a writer. When I was growing up, I was told writers don't make any money. And I should choose a more practical career. So I figured I would work in publishing because if I couldn't make a living writing books, maybe I could make a living making books. So I ended up getting a major in English and psychology, which turned out to be the perfect degree for content marketing. I had no idea what content marketing was, like I said that I wanted to work in publishing, graduated in 2009, right after the job market crashed. So there were no jobs to be had in publishing, or really anywhere else, which I think in the long run turned out to be a blessing in disguise that given what happened to the publishing industry after that. So I was busy answering phones, like a lot of people who graduated around that time just doing something to try and pay the bills ended up between jobs at one point and my roommate at the time, her dad, who was an attorney, was awesome and offered to give me stuff to do around his office until I got back on my feet. And one of the things he needed was someone to write blog posts for his law firm. And he knew if I had a strong writing background, so he offered me the gig and I was like, what I can get paid to write seriously, yeah, Sign me up. So I jumped at that chance, started writing blog posts for him and then for an associate of his and then for some friends of mine, did eventually get another day job. But again, it was just answering phones, I was much more excited about the writing that I was doing on the side. And that just kept growing until I couldn't do both anymore. So finally quit the day job I want to say into 2014 and I've been doing this full time ever since.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] It's so great. And I just appreciate so much how like it just turned into this thing that you love like you just kept Following kinda Okay, well, we're just gonna try this, we're gonna try this, like, you know, and just kind of see where the path leads you and ended up in a great space. But this is great, because I didn't know that you were a psychology and an English major. Maybe that helped me and I forgot. But that leads so perfectly into this next question because we're talking about yes content, but really specifically this month about copywriting. And so many of us think we're not copywriters, we're not trained, we're not experts in this field. I'm of the mindset of when you kind of really just talk from the heart and try to connect with people, then you can, then you can kind of refine from there. But you know, kind of what is it for you that we might want to think about when it comes to taking our content and creating that deeper connection, that deeper relationship with those that are reading what we're putting out there?

[Alison Ver Halen] Yeah, I think for me, what I really bring to the content that I create that is super effective is storytelling. That's how I got into writing that was all of the writing that I did for fun, from the time that I learned my alphabet. Continuing through the rest, like I'm still writing stories for fun. So when I started writing blog posts for that law firm, the one thing that I did that was really different from what he was doing when he was writing his own was a I'm not a lawyer, lawyers should not be allowed to do their own marketing, I'm just gonna say that. But I took the cut the topics he wanted me to cover, and I put them into a story. And it was a story that put the ideal customer front and center so they could really picture themselves in that situation. And it made it easier for them to understand either the problem they have the problem they might have, if they don't have a good lawyer or a good contract to protect them. And that has held true in all of the content that I create i It is the best way to a keep people engaged and to make yourself memorable, right? You can have all the stats and numbers and facts and figures and they're gonna be like, Okay, that's great. And it's gonna go in one ear and out the other, except for the few of us who are numbers, people. And I know, that's not me, we tend to remember, we are primed to,

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] and I. Yeah, I hope you're hearing this because this is a theme. Allison is not the first to say this on the podcast. So you know, she's reiterating a lot of the things that a lot of us have said. So I hope that that sticking with you, the stories do connect, regardless of the topic. But I love you know what you're talking about in the legal space. And I think we have a lot of listeners and clients that are in more sensitive issues, or supporting organizations that involve kids where you can't necessarily talk about the specific case or the specific people. So but you can still take those examples and craft stories around and say what would you say something like we serve people like this? Like, do you need to make it clear that this is sort of a made up story, so that people understand it? Does that not even matter?

[Alison Ver Halen] Yeah, so actually, what I still do not for that law firm, but for a different law firm, is I will write about stories that are being covered in the news. So it's not my my clients client. So we're not breaching any client confidentiality, we're not talking about anything that's not publicly available. But we are putting it into a story that again, puts that person friend center as opposed to a more newsy article, which is more like, here's what they said, here's what they said, Come up with your own conclusions. We kind of guide them towards a conclusion, which is you need a lawyer, if you're gonna deal with this situation. So you should call us if you have this problem. So but yeah, I do similar things in my own content, I will have kind of a scenario, or a story that's related to what I'm covering. I never talk about my clients and my, my content, but I can still talk about like, Hey, I was talking to someone about such and such. And I thought, you know, they had this question. So maybe you have this question, too. So here's the answer to the question.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, I think that's great. And I like how you said you bring up specific scenarios. But I think there's also something to taking stories out of the news and things that are happening in the news, and then just kind of using that timeliness as a Okay. Well, you know, here's something that happened. And we also sought have a similar solution to how you can make sure this doesn't happen. Either to you, or, Hey, here's the solution for how we can make this better how you could support it, like really just making it a personal connection, because people are hearing it in their brains. It's current, it's timely. I think that's great opportunity.

[Alison Ver Halen] Absolutely. Yeah. And if people are already searching for that topic, if maybe they see something about it on social media, or someone brings it up in conversation, and they Google it, I mean, they might find the news article, but maybe a few steps below that they find your blog post and that can be super useful.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about then the way that we write in the voice and the tone One that we write, cuz when you're talking and telling stories, it's a lot more personal, you're looking to make a more personal connection. You write a lot for law firms, nonprofits, I think a lot of times feel like they need to have a certain professionalism. And that looks different for everybody. But kind of what tone Are you taking with these pieces that you're writing in? You know, do we need to be serious and quote unquote, professional all the time?

[Alison Ver Halen] Yeah, I think, I think you can be a little bit casual and still have people take you seriously, especially if you are, again, answering their questions and positioning yourself as a thought leader, you can prove that you're really knowledgeable. And it's not that it doesn't matter the language that you use, I just don't think it needs to feel super buttoned up. I do think it is super important to get your brand voice down early, and be consistent with it. Because that is something that I struggled with with my clients is I asked about their brand voice guidelines, and they go brain boys what now? And so I kind of have to sit down with them. And I have a series of questions, I asked them to kind of lead them through the process of like, what do you want to sound like? What do you not want to sound like? How does your competition sound? How are we going to differentiate you from the competition? That is huge when it comes to Yeah, relating to people, because people are going to relate to something so much more based on how you say it rather than what you say. And again, it's making sure that you don't sound like everyone out there covering that same topic.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And so would you start by creating that brand voice by taking a look at who you're trying to target. So for example, we were talking with an organization that serves a Latin community, and provides a service support for for social workers or lawyers or whatever, like all of those different things. They help connect non native English speakers to the services that they might need in their day to day life. And this isn't a brain voice thing. But you know, just from a voice from the organization, you know, they had a dress code that was everybody must wear suit and ties because we're working with lawyers and accountants and CPAs. But their audience is not doesn't feel comfortable showing up to an office where everybody's in suit and ties, right. So, you know, do you kind of start with your audience in mind, so that you can make sure you're speaking you? I mean, you kind of already said a little bit of this, but you're speaking to their way and approach as opposed to your way and approach?

[Alison Ver Halen] Absolutely. And yeah, just a little side note, I haven't worked with lawyers, a lot of them wear jeans and T shirts to the office and the students when they go into court. So

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] fair enough. Fair enough.

[Alison Ver Halen] That is not true of all lawyers, but the most of the ones that I know, I have found that to be true. But yeah, it is super important that the content that you're creating relates with your audience, I talked about this, again, with I don't mean to pick on lawyers, but they are they are very guilty. And SEO people are guilty of this too of using the jargon, the Latin the acronyms that make the people they're trying to attract, go ha, and Google it. Or they could just click away and find their way to another website, who is going to explain it to them in terms they can understand. So that is yeah, what are they going to relate to? What are the problems you're solving for them and making sure that it's in language, they can understand, super important, you don't want to try and sound smarter than them, you want to try and sound like you know more about a particular topic than they know. But that's not the same as talking down to them.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Oh, that's a beautiful point. And I'm really glad you kind of steered us in that direction, because there's a couple different things. One is that we're, we have no attention span. And so we're scrolling content a lot more. And so we do need to kind of write language in a way that's easy for people to process quickly. Even if they are super intelligent on the topic, they you know, they need to be able to scan it quickly and take in that information. But the second piece is how can we get out of our own heads because we are knowledgeable. We know everything, we not everything. But we know a lot about what it is we're doing and how we're impacting our community. We are the experts. Yeah, writing this content, so people will trust us. But how do we get out of our own head and say, I need to start from the beginning. People don't know steps one through 10. And I'm writing something at step 13.

[Alison Ver Halen] There are a lot of ways around I mean, first and foremost, just get out and talk to people. I mean, I come up with so many blog post ideas just from talking to someone either like this one on one or at a networking event. And when I tell them what they do, they're some of the same questions that come up over and over and I go maybe I should write a blog post about that or have it. So that is first and foremost, social media is great, not just for posting about what you're doing, but actually engaging with your audience and asking what they're struggling with and what they have questions about. I mean, even for me, I know I've changed my car. Because I talk to a lot of people, and I talk about SEO, because I'm stuck in my own world. And I assume everyone knows what SEO means. And then someone goes, I'm sorry, what? What did you just say? I'm like, Oh, that's right. Not everyone is in my world, I have to pull back a little bit and explain these, these jargony terms to them. And so now I do that in my writing. And I always make sure to spell out SEO and all that good stuff, at least the first time. So yeah, something to keep in mind that your what your audience wants to hear

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] that I think you could take that as a blessing, because so many times we feel like we're going to run out of things to say, but if we really take that big bucket, and then like, break it down, Break it down, Break it down. Now all of a sudden, you have a whole series of pieces that you can write versus just the one that you thought was going to be the most relevant.

[Alison Ver Halen] Yeah, absolutely. And to back to your point, what you were talking about earlier about, you know, if people are in step one, and I'm writing it step 10. You can have blog posts, or other pieces of content that cover steps one through nine, and link back to them when you're on step 10. So you're like, here, I am talking about this. If you need to get caught up on this, here are some other reference materials for you. I know I do that a lot of my blog, because there are a lot of blog posts that cover the basics. And when I am talking about something a little more advanced, it's like if you want more information, go over here. That's also a good SEO trick, that those are what we call internal backlinks for you are linking to your own content, and you're organically driving traffic there. But then Google also takes note of those backlinks. And that can help boost their visibility a little bit.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So good. Well, and it's great when strategies all come together, you're not just doing something for one purpose, it also then inherently helps support everything else that you're doing, which is great when time is so precious. So switching gears a little bit kind of going back to brand voice. A lot of nonprofit organizations, organizations will say, Well, you know, we have lots of people that were trying to talk to us, we're trying to talk to our donors, and we're trying to talk to our customers, and we're trying to talk to corporations, like, do we need to have five brand voices to talk to all of them kind of how would you break that down. So it's not overwhelming to folks,

[Alison Ver Halen] one brand voice, keep it consistent. You can switch the tone voice is different from tone. Voice is your brand voice, it's the words you use, it's the words you don't use. There's a book that describes this better than I'm just making it. Great. It's called everybody writes by Ann Handley tone can change, I think you might send a thank you card, or you might send a condolence card, the tone is going to be very different, the voice can be the same, but the tone is going to change. So I think that's a good way to think about it. So. But your voice always needs to be consistent throughout all of the content that you're creating. When it comes to blog posts, you can have different blog posts that target different groups. And that's totally fine, because different people will find their way to the blog posts that are most relevant to them. And if it's not relevant to them, they'll skip it and go on to the next thing. And that's fine. I know it is tricky. From a marketing perspective. That's why most companies have at least two or three different marketing personas that they work with, because each piece of content they create is going to be speaking to one particular marketing persona and solving a specific problem for them. So you absolutely can do it with the multiple personas, different groups that you're talking to. But the voice needs to be consistent throughout all of your content.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, brand voice and then included in that as also your language guide. I love that you mentioned what are the words that you use? And what are the words that you don't. So the best example that I can give if you're like, I don't know what that would mean for my business. Like when I worked in the guitar industry, we had words like you use fingerboard instead of fretboard. Both are totally acceptable both spoke to kind of a different type of player. And so we were very intentional with what we use in our language because of who our audience was. So coming you know, I work with a couple another organization that uses the word youth instead of teens, you know, and so making sure that you're very comfortable with what those words look like for you. And then having that consistency so that people over time really understand when you're talking about who you're serving. They understand what that is. And curious about this from your standpoint, especially when it comes to copywriting and content. You mentioned jargon, we want to stay away from jargon but I feel like now with emojis and slang and becoming more comfortable like sometimes we tend to get a little bit too cutesy with the things we want to try to connect and like what is your take on kind of clarity versus cutesy? You know, to try to go maybe viral or some thing like that?

[Alison Ver Halen] Yeah, I always I mean, if it's a choice between clarity over consistency, I always recommend clarity first. I do love being cutesy when it's relevant and when the occasion calls for it, it can be a great attention grabber. And again, keep your brand in mind do you want? Is your brand something that can get a little cutesy? Or do you want it to stay more professional? And neither is right or wrong? It's just, again, remember your branding? With everything you do?

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, I think we tend to see trends and think we need to hop on them right away. And sometimes it's great. Sometimes they're in complete alignment with who you are. And they make a ton of sense. And sometimes, they're just not.

[Alison Ver Halen] Yeah, they just don't make sense for you. Yeah.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Okay. What other tips or things do you have kind of in your playbook that you like to keep in mind when you're writing content for clients? Um,

[Alison Ver Halen] yeah, brand voice and who you're writing for is a big one. Call to Action is also a big one. A lot of people I see put up blog posts, and they don't have a call to action, or their call to action is like, leave us a comment, let us know what you think. And that's a great way to get people to leave you a comment and then click away and you never hear from them again, you need to remember that each piece of content needs to capture that lead and lead them through the buyer journey, it's not necessarily going to be reached out and call us. It can be. But it could be you know, sign up for our webinars, sign up for our newsletter, download this PDF that we have, which then gets them on your newsletter, follow us on social media somewhere where you can continue building that relationship with that lead and turn them from a lead into a customer.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And so would you say the biggest, or the best call to action? I guess it's gonna vary, right? By platform. But if we're on our website, and we have a big blog post, would you say the best call to action is to try to get as many people onto your email list as possible. We have another favorite.

[Alison Ver Halen] Yeah, I mean, it's not bad. But you want to make sure they're they're good leads. I know a lot of people who freak out when people unsubscribe, but if they unsubscribe, it means they're not interested, they're never gonna buy from you. They're just helping you clean up your list for you. That's not a bad thing. And probably raising your open rate. Because now more people are going to be opening your newsletter. So yeah, you you do want a bigger list, but you also want a more qualified list. So it's not like you want leads for their or subscribers for the sake of having a big subscriber number. You want to make sure that there are people who are actually going to be following the rest of the buyer journey and eventually becoming a customer.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] That's a very good point. And I think the same would be we talk a lot about vanity metrics on social media, like looking at the impression that you might have a really great piece or, you know, social media posts that you put out there that has a lot of impressions, but no action, versus one that has less and less impressions, but more people engaged with it, which tells me that it's better connecting content to it.

[Alison Ver Halen] Absolutely. Yeah, I think I wrote. Okay, that about why you should not obsess over your follower account?

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, yeah, because especially on social media, it's like you'd have no control over what they're seeing how they're engaging, what they're interacting with any of that good stuff. So I definitely feel like we get obsessed with vanity vanity metrics, and it doesn't really matter.

[Alison Ver Halen] 100% Yeah. For those of you listening, that pause was because I'm having a coughing fit. Sorry about that.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] No worries. I could have kept talking. I got distracted by something outside. You know, I'm ADHD. I don't think I have ADHD. But I definitely get very squirrely and so I'll and right now where I'm working. There's like a street that goes like a highway that's right outside, and I was looking out the window, which I shouldn't do. But I only share this with you just to kind of reinforce what Allison was saying earlier. With regards to you don't want people to bounce from your content to somebody else. So if you make your stuff too complicated, they're not going to stick around, they're going to find that information. Right away. We talked a little bit about kind of the cuteness of it. So the last thing that I kind of want to touch on is also like the click Beatty type of content. So as we think about qualified leads, as we think about getting the right audience like you know, talk us maybe share a little bit with people that don't know kind of what clickbait truly is, and like how it's maybe not the right way to even though you might get more people to your website. It's not the right way to really get the right people.

[Alison Ver Halen] Sorry for the time to come After. Yeah, I mean. On the one hand, I see what you're saying. On the other hand, I think clickbait kind of gets a bad rap because their whole goal is to get people to click. When I think of clickbait, I think of something that entices you with one thing, and then gets you to click over to something, that's not actually what you thought you were going to be getting, which I never recommend. So obviously, it's all in the headline, the headline has to get their attention, like you said, we have a million things to scroll through. And it's so easy for us to just keep scrolling. So if your headline does not grab their attention right away, and give them a reason to click through, they're not going to do it. And step two is you have to actually fulfill the promise that the headline makes. So because yeah, if they click through thinking, they're getting one thing, and they end up getting something else, they're just gonna click away. And that doesn't help you. It doesn't help them. It doesn't help anyone. You got a little bit more traffic, but you also got a bounce, which Google does track that. And if you have a really high bounce rate that can actually lower your SEO, your search engines like when

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] you like the 10 best dress women at the Oscars, and then it sends you to an article that's all about some miracle weight loss drug. Yeah, exactly. And clickbait that you've probably all been susceptible to on on Facebook. Yeah, we

[Alison Ver Halen] think what you're saying

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] that you can still create a header that's engaging, that encourages the click, but then also still provide super valuable content. And maybe an example of that would be like, like I did an episode once that was like 10 reasons why you shouldn't use email marketing. Now, that's more attention grabbing. In the article, I'm actually telling you why you should use it, but was talking through all of the opposition's? Like, the reasons I get from, about why they don't use it, and then kind of refuting the reasons for it. So that would maybe be the type of clickbait that you're talking about. That's positive.

[Alison Ver Halen] Yeah, no, I love that because that is very attention grabbing. So the the reason I hesitate to talk down to clickbait is because a lot of people don't want to create headlines. That sound click Beatty, because people have been fooled by them so many times, and they don't want their headline, I think confused with that. But they're called clickbait for a reason. It's because people click on the, like you said 10 reasons to or 10 reasons not to lists are great. People love lists, the how tos are great. How Tos can also be great keywords, because a lot of people when they want to know how to do something, they type it into Google. So that can be a great header as well. So yeah, some of those headline tricks that you see in the clickbait headlines, they work. That's, that's why the clickbait people keep using them. So you can absolutely use them in your content as long as you are, like you said, actually fulfilling that promise.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So it seems like it's about building trust. Because once you start to click on those, and you realize you're not getting what you need, or like let's say you have a something that's like learn how to learn how to help your dog be better behaved or something, and then it takes you to an adoption page or it takes you to a donate page. I feel like it's in alignment with the organization. But it doesn't make sense, right? Like that hurts trust. So I think what you're saying is it's really about building trust with your audience. And then they'll you know, that alone will encourage more clicks through to your website on your content, but also will get them you know, when you have some of those more fun trigger headlines, they'll be more likely to click on it because they already know that you provide tremendous value.

[Alison Ver Halen] Absolutely. And those leads are gonna be more likely to convert because you've built that trust. Yeah, good marketing is all about building trust,

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] especially in the nonprofit space, because nonprofits that are struggling with trust these days. Okay. Well, Allison, this has been fantastic. I think you know, a couple big key takeaways, really focus on your brand messaging, and start focusing on storytelling. And just keep working through the process. Make sure you have strong calls to action. Is there anything else that I may have missed that you have like a quick tip or something that you might want to share with folks?

[Alison Ver Halen] I don't know if I have any other quick tip.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Good stuff.

[Alison Ver Halen] I could talk about this all day. But I think those those are all key knowing, knowing your brand voice. Knowing your target audience and having a buyer journey mapped out so you can lead people through the buyer journey. Quick shout out for my book, content marketing Made Easy, which you can find on Amazon covers these things and a whole lot more.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I love that. Well, I was gonna lead right into how can people connect with you? So check out the book for sure. And we'll link that up in the show notes at https://thefirstclick.net/223 But how else can people connect with you?

[Alison Ver Halen] Yeah, so my website is a V as in my initials, Allison Van Halen. So that is a V writing services.com And you can find me on LinkedIn as house For Halen, and as AV writing services, and I'm on Instagram on YouTube,

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I love it. Well, yeah, we'll get all that linked up in the show notes. Allison, this was fantastic. I think everybody has a good place to go to review the stuff you've been doing, tweak and refine, like you said, quality, quality and consistency matter, you and I agree with that. 100%. So thank you so much for sharing all of your insights and wisdom with us here today.

[Alison Ver Halen] Thank you so much for having me.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Big, big thank you to Allison for joining me today. It's such a great conversation. And I hope you're ready to get out there and tackle that copy, and make better connections with your audience. I would really love it if you would subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts, or if you're watching this video on YouTube, it will just help us get this podcast and to more small to medium sized nonprofits that could really use the digital marketing support as they're serving the critical community that they need to be impacting here. And again, don't forget we have bonus episodes that come out two times a month to support you. And so by subscribing, you'll get those notifications when those go live. I appreciate you so much and hope you're having a wonderful day. Thank you so much for being here and I will see you in the next one.