When you're building trust online, a great way to do that is by collaborating with people that are aligned with your cause. This gives you visibility with an audience that already trusts the brand or person you're partnering with. 

This episode will give you ideas for building personal relationships with influencers and brands to be able to get out and grow your impact.

What you'll learn:

→ how collaborations work online.
→ ensuring there is a connection with your CRM.
→ tips for making an ask.
→ aligning goals and budget with the partnership.

Want to skip ahead? Here are key takeaways:

[6:30] Collaborations can help you get in front new audiences, even on platforms you aren't currently on. Partnerships can span across platforms to build your visibility in other arenas.
[7:34] You can create great collaborations at various levels. It doesn't have to be large productions with big brands. It can be hyper local and focused on strong partnerships that already exist. It also doesn't have to include an exchange of money.
[11:51] The ask depends on the size of the brand and the expectation. Be very clear on the goals of the collaboration so you're making the right ask that is in alignment with both companies or organizations. Build relationships, remembering that some will take more time than others to cultivate.
[22:53] Consider the goals and budget for the campaign. One post from a brand on social media might not give you that big of a boost. Can you run social media ads to keep it going and build momentum?

Resources

VIP Strategy Days
NonProfit Megaphone
[book] Debrief to Win: How America's Top Guns Practice Accountable Leadership…and How You Can, Too!

Full Transcript

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hello, hello. Today we are talking all about collaborations and social media. How can you reach out to brands to work on showcasing your organization getting in front of their audience and growing your visibility, whether it's for getting more signups for your events, whether it's more awareness of your organization, getting more donations, driving people to content, whatever the goal is, collaborating on social media can be a great opportunity to get more eyeballs on your stuff, feature some of your sponsors, people that you want to have potential sponsors with and working it up into having bigger brand deals, or your organization. And to help us work through this today is my guest, Brian Davidson.

Brian is the co founder of match node, a digital marketing agency that is changing the way people and organizations leverage social media. He and his team have worked on digital ad campaigns for influential brands like New Balance, Chicago Bulls, Chicago Blackhawks lending tree at Indiana University, Ryan has been a leader in generating leads using social media since 2007, when he became the VP of social media and CSA athletic recruiting. Lead Generation efforts helped the company join both the cranes and Inc fastest growing lists. Brian is passionate about using his experience to help build help businesses achieve provable and meaningful growth. If you've started doing brand deals, if you want to expand your current brand deals, if you don't know what a brand deal is, if you don't know how to get started, or what elements should be considered when doing this, this is definitely the episode for you. And I love his take on authenticity values on goals, and making sure that you're creating the right brand deals and collaborations on social media that are going to be meaningful for your organization, if you're gonna put the time and effort into it, it needs to be meaningful. So I think you're really going to get a lot out of this episode. And just get your brain thinking about how you can leverage social media to expand your reach without having to necessarily pay for ads, you can pay for ads in conjunction with these collaborations, but also how you can start small with some of your brands and work your way up into bigger and bigger and bigger collaborations, bigger donations, bigger sponsorships. So hope you check it out. And let me know. And I'd love to know what kind of brand deals you're working on and what social media platforms you're on, so I can follow along with you and check it all out. Now he does mention some resources, so you'll be able to check those out at https://thefirstclick.net/217. And so definitely check that out. So you can find out more information about Brian and some of the resources he mentioned in this episode.

Before we get into it, this episode is brought to you by our VIP days, VIP days are half day or full day sessions where we can work one on one together my time that day is dedicated to you and the project that you need to focus on. Whether it's your website, whether it's your content strategy, whether it's building and crafting, a collaboration and a brand outreach strategy, we are here for you to help you get the work done all in one day. So you can continue to keep moving forward. With all of the other things that are on your plate. You can learn more about our VIP days at https://thefirstclick.net/vip space is extremely limited since we have to block off an entire day. So make sure you snag your spot now so that you don't have to wait too long to get this work done. For now, let's get into the episode.

[Intro] You're listening to the digital marketing therapy podcast. I'm your host, Sami Bedell-Mulhern. Each month we dive deep into a digital marketing or fundraising strategy that you can implement in your organization. Each week, you'll hear from guest experts, nonprofits, and myself on best practices, tips and resources to help you raise more money online and reach your organizational goals.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hey, everybody, please join me in welcoming Brian Davidson to the podcast. Brian, thanks for joining me today.

[Brian Davidson] Absolutely, Sami happy to be here.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So we're talking about collaborations and social media collaborations is probably one of my favorite marketing things to talk about. Because I just think, you know, you never know what can happen. And they can be amazing. But why do you love collaborations so much? Well,

[Brian Davidson] I think they're really powerful for a couple of reasons. One, I think they're fun to they're creative. And three, they can be really different than just sort of your standard ads that are you're seeing very consistently in social media. And it's one of the last best great ways to get organic reach as well as opposed to not just running ads all the time. So brands collaborating in new and interesting ways can super be super super powerful and help your socials quite a bit.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I love that. And so how before we going to jump into some specifics, but like how might collaborations look different on social media than like your normal collaboration, like with your, you know, maybe a pop up event at a store or like an offline collaborate? Question?

[Brian Davidson] Sure, well, frankly, I am pretty heavy into the digital world. And my analog self doesn't get out nearly as much now that I live out in the suburbs of Indiana. But I'd say first of all, they're a lot easier to do online, you can spin up a collaboration by emailing someone out of the blue or meeting them on LinkedIn or sending them a message on Reddit, it's a lot easier to collaborate with different brands, brands at the local level can also link up digitally, it doesn't necessarily have to be in person, it's really, really easy to tag someone in a social post or just hEGGs want to add, or to share content that gets put in an ad, it's really easy to take content that's strong on one platform and move it over to another platform more than ever. So before I saw a really good comment the other day that this is the first time that we're seeing trending content, that trends on YouTube, Facebook, tick tock and Twitter, at the same time always used to be very content those created specifically for those platforms. So it's a lot easier to spin up essentially.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and I think you'll see that a lot too, with a bunch of influencers, they'll give you like almost a teaser on one platform, talk about a collaboration that then more in full on like, so maybe it's like a quick tic tac video that talks about it same on Facebook, or whatever, and then a longer form content on YouTube. But like they're even, you know, you can use collaborations to really kind of cross promote on all platforms. So it doesn't just have to be brands that are on the platform you're on,

[Brian Davidson] you're at the same time you're growing your own presence on all these platforms. So as the popularity let's say Tik Tok is banned. Well, you've already used Tik Tok to grow your YouTube short following, or Tik Tok starts to increase in volume, but you've got a great following on YouTube. Well, you can push more followers that way. And it's a great way then for the sharing on those platforms to reach new and unique different people. But then, of course, you know, the algorithms are different for each platform. So a partnership that's extended across platforms could gain organic reach solely due to that partnership, because of platform specific nuances.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hmm. Okay, so somebody's listening to this, they're like this is too much collaborations aren't going to work for me in my business. Do you have a few examples of some fun collaborations that you've seen, because I love that you said at the beginning, it's all about creativity. It's about you know, like fun, and like getting out and growing your audience in new ways. So what are some collaborations that you've seen, that people might want to be inspired by.

[Brian Davidson] So at the highest level, we're running collaborations for the pro sports franchises that we work with all the time. So there's all sorts of brand cross promotions, usually from a sponsor getting X amount of tagged or running something really specific, with a pro sports scene for like a giveaway or something like that, let's say it's a bobblehead sponsored by American Express. So we're running all sorts of promotions at the pro sports level all the time, but thick on the more niche level, we have restaurants that run cross promotions, where there's a specific whiskey that they're promoting or specific beer, a could be at the hyperlocal level, where it's a local brewery being promoted specifically at a one location restaurant. So it can be these big giant brands, tagging each other on social media. And it also can be very, very niche and then sort of span in the middle of those collaborations are taking influencer content that you may or may not have made paid for it might be real, it might be organic, and out there, just taking that content, and bring it over to your own platforms. So these partnerships can be loose, they can be giant corporate deals, they could be hyperlocal, they could be a well thought out years in the making campaign between Harley Davidson and the Milwaukee Bucks. They're all sorts of different types of these cross promotion campaigns in different collaborations. It's really as creative as you want to be.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] But how important is it that even with that creativity, that the partnership still feels authentic, right? Like there still needs to be some sort of connection. So as you're thinking about who you might want to be collaborating with, being able to tie that that that link to either their audience, or there's a similar story, or I mean, like, how important is that to kind of converting people into following you afterwards? Well,

[Brian Davidson] let's look at sort of the highest corporate level, let's say, you know, yeah, collaboration between a pro sports team and a credit card, probably not all that fun, but very iconic brands that align from a value standpoint. So there's an alignment there. Let's go to the hyperlocal level, you're really it's very, usually just transactional, and that they're both gaining exposure to their audiences at a very local level. So I really just try to think about first of all, what is our intent from from both sides of the equation? And who are we giving that value to. So let's say a bobblehead giveaway, got a a bobblehead giveaway from the Milwaukee Brewers. And this is what the local sausage company. Well, this local sausage company wants to be associated with the Brewers, the brewers are happy to give a bobblehead to their fans, and their fans are happy to get something free. So everyone gets a little bit of value. But you know, at the core of it, I think you should try to just aim for something that's fun. I think you can align things as long as value is being received by all the parties involved. And if it's very, very clear that someone's writing someone else's coattails, and they're not getting anything out of it, I think that's where things fall, right. But as long as there's alignment, I don't think there needs to be a perfect synergy. Sometimes it can be just very self interested in all three parties are looking to get x thing, and they're very okay with that.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and that's a good point that you bring up. So let's talk about kind of this is a great collaboration is really relationship based and entering into a collaboration, especially on social media, there's so many vanity metrics that are out there, you know, like, companies will promise we'll we'll get you X amount of impressions. Well, we know impressions are really kind of meaningless in the grand scheme of conversion, so showing up with your goals. But you know, if we're a smaller company, and we're like, well, we want to target a bigger organization. So this local sausage company that went for the Brewers like that feels like a very one sided one side is heavier than the other. So should we be worried about? Like, should we start with just people that are the same audience size with us? Should we be worried about people that have huge audiences? If our audience is smaller? Like how do we kind of navigate through that, so we don't waste anybody's time and we can have an effective collaboration?

[Brian Davidson] I think it depends on the level of the ask, it's where I would start. If it's a giant ask of Nike to fly in a million new sneakers to support my local 5k Run, they're going to my email is not going to make it to the spam filter. So but if I went to a store nearby here, that has X amount of dollars, from their Nike reps to support local causes, to donate some gift cards to support my 5k run? And indirectly, I'm able to use some sort of local Nike messaging on a brochure. That's a very reasonable ask. And am I able to then translate that into my socials? Of course, very reasonable. Can I reach out? Let's say it's a Chicago marathon? Can I reach out to local runners that might be sponsored by Nike? That's a very reasonable ask, rather than saying, Nike, can you put, you know, multimillion dollar sponsorship package together for the Chicago Marathon? Now that that couldn't happen, if that certainly could happen. But very, very easy ask is to go find those local runners. So these elaborate campaigns, of course, can take time, you need to make sure that there's value being gained by all sides. But on these smaller transactions, if it's a low ask, I think more often than not, they're gonna say yes.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and I think it's more about right, like starting small with some of those target companies that you want bigger brand deals with maybe starting with the local shop, proving it, and then maybe hopefully, they can introduce you to somebody else and introduce, right when you're talking about the long term things that are planned out for years. You know, that's probably how some of those bigger brand deals are coming about. It's not just a one time conversation.

[Brian Davidson] Sam, you said this a few minutes ago, or a few seconds ago, really. Impressions don't necessarily matter. So you want to take these low level engagements and partnerships, show success in terms of tangible KPIs, build a case study, and bring that along with you, as you're approaching bigger and bigger collaborations.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So good. Okay, so let's get super tactical. So if I'm like, Okay, I've got my 5k coming up. And I want to work on some brand collaborations specifically, because, you know, we want to get more social media outreach out there. How specific do we want to get with folks because I think there's this fear of, well, I don't want to ask them for too much, or I don't want to seem too pushy or whatnot. But does it look better for us to show up to a brand and say, Hey, like, our expectation is, you know, we're looking for a partnership that will do X amount of posts, they'll create this amount of video, like, should we go in with kind of a plan so the brand partner knows exactly what our expectation is? Or should we go in and kind of have a soft conversation and kind of figure out what their capacity is and come to those terms together?

[Brian Davidson] Again, this really depends on the level that you're aiming for. If I'm at Thank for

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] let's assume, let's assume we're in a more local level, not at the national national at the

[Brian Davidson] local level, I'd start by building relationship, I would start trying to do DM someone on Instagram, or send them an email or find their Reddit handle or friend them on LinkedIn, how I find a mutual relationship that can induce the two of you get coffee with somebody knock on their door at their local restaurant, speaking of getting into the analog world, try to start with that relationship and get to know each other as people and get to understand what their brand wants and what their brand is. And I think at that level, you'd have a much, much better chance of building something that's meaningful.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah. And then, you know, I think also, the beauty of this type of collaboration is in some of those conversations it like, let's say, you're hitting somebody up for a sponsorship, maybe you're adding some of these things into your package. Or maybe it's, Hey, we know, you can't sponsor like, it's a great way to also reach out to other brands to help just promote stuff for you without that cash incentive, necessarily, right, you could be giving them a win a way to promote you look good partner with you, without having to exchange cash on any, on any site just sharing with their audience.

[Brian Davidson] And a lot of times, that's their objective, like, they'll go into the year with an objective of doing just that. So you're actually helping them out by giving them an avenue to execute.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] It love that. So if we are thinking about social media, specifically, and you mentioned ads. You know, what does that look like? If you're sponsoring and collaborating with somebody in the ad space? Are you asking them to pay for the ads? Are you offering to pay for the ads? Like, how would we want to think like, what might we want to think about before we enter into that kind of a conversation with someone?

[Brian Davidson] Let's contracts can all be very different. But I really live in the ad world. So the biggest thing that I want to think about first, is what does the content look like? And what is the objective of the ad, sometimes these partnerships are to sell tickets, and they're collaborating around a theme nights a, let's say, a Star Wars themed night. Sometimes a collaboration can just be impression based, and that they want this video to run to a specific fan base, and they want the bowls to run a video that's gonna hit X impressions, to their followers and to custom audiences that they've built and that they've gotten from the NBA and sophisticated targeting that can purely be impression based on sometimes it's just tagging someone in an ad, or sometimes it's sharing that content from a different handle or a different account that can run an ad. So one, I would start with the objective, are we selling something or we're getting a lead? Is it purely impression based, purely video view based? Is it purely, maybe even follower based? I don't love the impressions. And the followers, I think a lot of times those end up being bots, I prefer to sell something or get a lead or at minimum take them to a piece of content that can be consumed, or bring them to a collaboration like a like a basket three on three basketball tournament, that's gonna happen in the summer, in the case of struggle bowls, and bowls fest. So I prefer collaborations that are in that venue. But again, they can be rather light.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, but Okay, so this also brings up another piece in kind of all the talk about privacy right now and sharing customer information. So if we're running ads to leads, or we're running ads to ticket sales, like, you know, what kinds of things that we want to think about with regards to like, which parties get that contact, that customer information? How do we communicate that to our customers like that needs to be really transparent on the front end, as well, right? 100%.

[Brian Davidson] So that needs to be defined, before we even go into an engagement are we going to get this data, or, more often that you're not going to get the data, you're gonna say, you're gonna go into an agreement, I'm gonna say, these are the audiences that we've built that are proprietary to us. And we are going to run this content at these proprietary audiences. We're going to report on our KPIs and our metrics, but we are not sharing customer data back with you. More often than not, the lawyers on both sides are gonna say, Whoa, we don't want to get into that.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah. Because you want people to opt in to your stuff on their own right, which is also a better lead. Anyway, so like some ways, like what are some ways that we could we could do that. I mean, like that could do a lot to opt in, like a dual opt in.

[Brian Davidson] Yeah, that happens all the time. Let's say I go do a registration form for something. Do you want to hear more from x, x and y? I'm getting a lot better about checking know, those boxes as my email continues to become a battleground. Trying to get to zero, that is never going to happen anytime soon. But absolutely, you can spell that out in your terms and conditions. But also, a lot of times when you're writing this sort of content, your follower counts tend to just go up. Because if it's good content, it gets shared across the different handles, and you're starting to gain authority, and a following, and some trust and whatever you're trying to communicate. There's a couple comedians that I follow all the time that are do a great job of taking me from what we were talking about earlier, from Twitter, to Facebook, to YouTube shorts to gain eventually that subscribe, but there's a bunch of email newsletters that I get to do a good job of pushing me to the YouTube channel. So pushing me to their podcast, there's a lot of different ways you can grow your following and collaborate around it.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Okay, so kind of one of the last things I want to touch on here is also really thinking about longevity. So like, what do you see with kind of those one shot like, Hey, we're going to do to do this one all out, we're going to do this, to post whatever, it's just gonna be this quick, shortened timeframe, we're going to do this quick collaboration, we're done, right? Like you see that a lot with influencers that will post one time about a product, they might get paid for it. Like that's kind of a really brief collaboration there, right? Versus having organizations that you have a longer relationship with where maybe it's like a three to six month thing, where there's content dripping out over a period of time, so their audience is seeing your stuff more often. And I know there's purposes for both. But could you maybe talk a little bit about strategies behind both of those, and what we might want to consider

[Brian Davidson] sure they're really short one off incredibly transparent, incredibly transactional types of collaborations, I tend to think that those are going to slowly start to disappear. I frankly, am blown away by the amount of money that can still continue to get to travel to influencers. I could not imagine buying makeup because a Jenner tells me to buy makeup. But apparently, there's a lot of people that still want their advice on the makeup that they wear, that's totally fine. But I tend to believe that type of incredibly transactional short term relationship is going to continue to shrink. That's not to say that it's not going to continue. But I think when you start into a relationship, you're starting to date each other. But hopefully, that becomes a long term relationship, hopefully, maybe you get married, or maybe that becomes a couple year partnership. And I think if you go into a relationship with with the hopes that it's going to grow into more, and both parties genuinely hope it's going to grow into more, I think you're going to be entering into those types of transactions with both eyes open. And I think you're going to be a little more invested from both sides to make it work. And I think it's going to be a lot more authentic. And I think the more importantly, at the end of the day, I think the customers perceive it that way.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Right. Because if you're willing to talk about somebody multiple times, you must really care about that product or that service or the you know, way that that commute, that organization is serving the community, it's you know, you you're putting your trust in them by sharing it with your audience more often. And we also know that we need to see things multiple times. So like, if those one shot posts, or one shot campaigns, you're probably not even tapping into your, you're probably tapping into just like a small portion of their audience by only doing it one or two

[Brian Davidson] times 100%, right, because nothing gets seen by your entire audience anymore. Even the people with the absolute best reach of all time. You know, it drives me a little crazy. They have to see the same tweet over and over and over again of someone in content marketing, realize it takes four tweets to get my message out. So I'm going to tweet it seven times. So I'm big on my chronological timeline, rather than the algorithm but. But like, like you said, right, the long the longer term partnership, absolutely, you can convey that message in different ways. You can convey it with different messages, different messaging, and it comes off as more authentic pieces of long term partnership.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, so good. Well, I think in the nonprofit space, you automatically have a leg up because you already have you already have sponsors, you already have individuals or foundations that are partners with you that are giving money to you all the time. Like it's really just about solidifying and creating a program that you can then duplicate and replicate, right that you can have conversations with these folks and say, Hey, here's this program we already have, would you be willing to participate. And as long as you're not doing social media ads, this social piece is a free way for people to support your organization, you just need to put together a thoughtful program

[Brian Davidson] 100%. So two of our partners that we work with in the in the nonprofit space are, I think people that you've had on the show before nonprofit megaphone and give panel and we're working with them on the technical aspects on the back end of how to use things like Facebook conversion API, how to use things like value optimization, how to use things like convert Jim leads. So a lot of technical add pieces, but their programs don't work unless there's an organic feel for accomplishing good in the world. So it's a fantastic way to go about things.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I love that anything else that or trends that you're seeing or something that I didn't ask that you think would be really helpful for people that are just getting started in maybe formalizing collaborations? You know, we know what we don't we only know what we know, we don't know what we don't know. So you know, what might be kind of your secret little inside scoop? Well, the super

[Brian Davidson] technical things are on the ad side that I just mentioned. And that's Facebook conversions, API value optimization and conversion leads. But let's just start on the very, very opposite side, just tagging someone your posts, getting the right hashtags in place. Mentioning people, very, very important, almost equally as important for the algorithm.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, and so easy.

[Brian Davidson] 100%. Right. It's almost pure laziness. If you're not. Yeah.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, I really love your take on authenticity, making sure your values align, and creating good content, because I think that's where we tend to get a little bit, you know, excited. And we're like, oh, we're just gonna go after everybody, we're just going to do this thing. Remember, it all comes down to that quality content. I love pushing people to a blog post. I think that's fantastic. And just getting started and testing out the waters. I mean, just like anything in marketing, right? building collaborations is all about testing. And actually, one last question. When somebody has a collaboration that doesn't work well, or something happens, that's maybe I don't want to say a negative but a negative. You know, I mean, at some point, that's going to happen, right? A collaboration is not going to be the right fit. How do you kind of mentally work through that without spiraling and just being like, Okay, well, now we've just ruined our entire business.

[Brian Davidson] Well, hopefully, I didn't screw up my audience too bad right there. I literally had my microphone sitting on a book that I just read, debrief to win, and it's about aviators in the Navy, and how they go about looking at a situation good or bad after the fact. And leads me to say, be transparent, the other brands gonna see what happened, you're not going to hide something from someone, if you're sorry, let them know you're sorry. Let them know the facts on the ground. Don't let them know that you've entered into this with the best of intentions, we may have overlooked this, and this is what happened in this is what we've learned, you're not gonna be able to hide things from people. And if you're going to, if something turns south for whatever reason, it's much, much better to be transparent, than try to hide something. And after the fact that really comes to bite you in the butt. So I've learned that in business over the hard way, over the last 20 years. But it's a lot easier now to admit that I made a mistake and move on from it and understand that I learned something.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And I think people appreciate that much more than trying, they people can see when you're trying to like, pull the wool over their eyes. 100% Or that's That phrase

[Brian Davidson] is assess the situation. Right.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Exactly, exactly. Move on. Um, Brian, thank you so much for being here today. There's a lot of good things in here for people to just think about as they're putting together collaborations because I think when it comes to social media and brand deals, nonprofit organizations tend to think about them only from a monetary standpoint. And there's so many other ways that social media can be used to kind of connect with people and build relationships that will hopefully eventually turn into bigger gifts, but all good stuff. If people want to hear more from you learn more from you see all of the amazing things that you're up to, how do they do,

[Brian Davidson] just come to our website, mash no.com. So just Ma Te ch n od e.com. We'd love to talk to you more

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] perfect. And we will link everything up in the show notes at https://thefirstclick.net/217. We'll link up that book that Brian mentioned and a ton of other resources for you there as well. Brian, thank you so much.

[Brian Davidson] Appreciate it Sami.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So thankful to Bryan for being on this episode and sharing some of his insights. I know it can feel overwhelming thinking about some of the big brand collaborations that he's talking about. But remember to start small, start somewhere and start building and you never know. You know, we talk a lot on this podcast about asking for what you need and asking for what you want. And unless you have those conversations, you're never going to know what's going to come from it. And having this idea in your toolbox is just going to help you better align those conversations that you're having with the right opportunity to grow your organization and increase your impact. So I hope that you got some good value from this episode, you could check out the show notes and resources at https://thefirstclick.net/217 For now Now, you know what I'm going to say hit that subscribe button wherever you listen so you don't miss out on a single episode. And let us know what you think about the topics we're talking. Let us know if you like these monthly themes this month, we're talking social media. And I would love to know if there's topics that are valuable or meaningful for you that you could you could use some support within your organization. You can email those to me at hello@thefirstclick.net or fill out the form that's in the bottom of the show notes for all of these episodes. Thank you so much for listening, and I will see you in the next one.