Ep 190 | Building a Marketing Strategy that Works with Erin Marcus
Erin Marcus is sharing what she would have done differently if she started her company now, why nurturing your audience is important, and a great way to think about different generations.
What you'll learn:
→ what Erin would have done differently if she could go back to the beginning.
→ ways to nuture your audience.
→ why we should care about younger generations
→ 2023 projections in marketing
Want to skip ahead? Here are key takeaways:
[6:02] Don't make your marketing all about you. Remember that people want to feel like you understand their pain point. Your marketing should make it clear that you are the ONLY solution to help them with that and that you fully understand where they're at!
[9:41] Advice Erin would have given herself. Build an audience right away so you have more people to talk to. Remember you're running a business, act like it even though you're a nonprofit.
[18:34] How to deal with younger generations. Each generation makes change so that the next generation can grow. It's a natural progression. Remember that younger generations have money, it's just the way they choose to spend it that's different.
[24:15] Erin's 2023 projections. More intimate experiences! Creating exclusive opportunities to engage with your audience. The money is still there, it just looks different.
Founder, Conquer Your Business
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[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hey there, I am excited about today's conversation, I went into the interview thinking it was going to be something a little bit different. We're talking about marketing, of course. But it just turned into such a better conversation about how we think about the way that we show up. The way that we show up for our donors, the way that we show up for our cause creative ways that we can think about how we engage and nurture our audience and creative ways to think about marketing that might not feel like marketing, but are 100% going to help you with the long term strategy for your organization. We even get a little bit into the conversations around generational giving.
I'm joined today by Erin Marcus, Erin is the founder and CEO of conquer your business and international company, helping entrepreneurs and small business owners get out of reaction mode, so they can be in charge of their businesses and in charge of their lives. I like I said, this conversation kind of went in a different direction, which I love so much. And she has such great insight on how to step into marketing and how to really serve people how to serve our donors, and how to really make it about them and solve their problem and talk about the ways that they show up. Right. So I think you'll really enjoy it. I hope you enjoy it. I'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback. But I just I'm so darn excited. Let's just get into this episode.
Before we do. This episode is brought to you by our quiz, should you DIY your website. If you're thinking about building a website in 2023, redoing your website, working with somebody not working with somebody doing it yourself, this quiz will help you really figure out what is going to be the best option for you and your organization based off budget, time, experience, etc. So go to the first click dotnet forward slash quiz. Take the quick quiz. And afterwards, you'll get some great resources to help you in your website journey. Wherever you're at, again, https://thefirstclick.net/quiz Let's get into the episode.
[INTRO] You're listening to the digital marketing therapy podcast. I'm your host, Sami Bedell-Mulhern. And each week, I bring you tips from myself and other experts, as well as hot seats with small business owners and entrepreneurs to demystify digital marketing and get you on your way to generating more leads and growing your business.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hey, everybody, please join me in welcoming Erin Marcus to the podcast. Erin, thank you so much for being here today.
[Erin Marcus] I'm so excited. Good to see you good to chat.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And we are both marketing nuts and love to geek out on it. So why don't you just tell me a little bit about you know why that is such a big fan favorite topic of yours?
[Erin Marcus] Okay, this might sound weird because I gave this some thought. Why? Cuz, you know, what are we doing? If we're not overthinking? Why do I love this so much. And I think one of the reasons is double sided marketing. Good marketing is what lets entrepreneurs grow their business. So right, yay for that. But on the consumer side, what I love is well done marketing on the for the consumer, the recipient of the marketing creates aha moments. Like, the minute somebody's message touches you. And maybe it's because of who I work with and what I do, I work with a lot of thought leaders, I work with a lot of coaches and consultants. So we're doing things or trying to do things that have an impact on somebody. And marketing is where the consumer, our prospect first has an inkling that their life could be different. It's it's the moment something shifts for them that wait a minute, maybe there's more. That's possible.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and this is fantastic, because you know, like our audience is largely nonprofit. And I love that mind frame shift, because it's not about like, let me share all of the amazing things we do. But it's like how giving your donors that aha moment of like, this is the organization going to make the biggest impact and I have to be a part of the movement.
[Erin Marcus] Right? And marketing is the time it's the it's the moment in time that you get to share that with your audience. It's the moment in time where you get especially for nonprofit, where you get the chance for your dream to become their dream and their dream to be you know, it's the moment you decide to do something together. I love that. Right? And I don't think people realize that or maybe that's us marketing geeky people, right? And how we view this. This is the master floofy by the way, for
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] those of you watching on YouTube, there's a lot The cat hanging
[Erin Marcus] COVID She's an international speaker and
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] well, so um, let me ask you this, then because I do feel like it's a muscle, we have to, we have to train, right? Like, it's not a natural way for how we think about communication. I do agree with you, like if you're not a marketer, and it's not gimmicky, but it's something we have to put into practice, right? It's almost like, every time we get ready to send out something, that's a marketing thing, we have to then take a step back and like change that lens and say, Are we great? So how do you kind of start to flex that muscle and start to retrain your brain and the way that you think about what you're pushing out in the world?
[Erin Marcus] Well, I think you're dead on I think it is a muscle and a habit. And the difficult part, it's a muscle and a habit that literally goes against neuroscience. So right, so give yourself a break, if you're not great at it, we're working against our brains here. Marketing is about letting the recipient of the marketing have a new idea, which means it has to be about them. And our brains are wired to talk about ourselves. And then on top of that, you put all of the hard work hard money, hard energy, hard effort that you've put into doing a good job at the thing that you do, which then makes you feel it's very important, cuz you've done all this work, when the truth is the recipient of your information could care less. And it creates this false sense of prioritization. totally logical, totally get it. But in, you know, in the eyes of who you're trying to talk to, they don't actually care yet, not that they don't care at all, but they don't care yet. And so it is a muscle and it is a habit. And I love how you said, take a step back before you put your stuff out into the world. And you just have to, you know, put on a different hat walk in their shoes, if I were to receive this one, right. It can't be about you. It can't be about and, and I think it becomes very difficult in the nonprofit world and in with charitable organizations, because the mission is so important. It's the whole reason for it. So we don't abandon the message of the mission. But how could you make it about them, I'll give you an example. So my personal passion with nonprofits is wildlife rescue and animal rescue, I have volunteered for decades now. And I'm launching a foundation myself. And because of my background, I'm the recipient of a monumental amount of wildlife rescue and animal related, because I give, you know, I make donations and up on their lists. And the people who come to me with one more emergency like that stuff doesn't land, it's we screwed up, we didn't make enough money, we don't have enough money. There's never enough money, give us some money. And that's not about the mission. But it's not really about the mission. That's about the money. And if you would just change that message to show how your prospective donor could be part of the mission.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] How do you make that person's superhero?
[Erin Marcus] Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And them, not you I mean,
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] well, and I think, you know, when we're when we're pushing out marketing efforts for a nonprofit, we tend to think that because just like you said earlier, like, we are so excited about what we're doing, everyone's gonna care about it. But just like in the commercial space there for every wildlife rescue organization, there's three more that are doing, everybody's doing a little bit differently. So like, how can we really just push out our unique proposition that's going to attract the people that care about the way that we, we do the work. So I feel like some organizations have been around for a long time, and they're still not doing as well, some organizations are brand new, but regardless, like, we can also make a shift in the way that we push out our marketing. So kind of what would be some life lessons that you would love to share? Like if you could go back to the beginning of your business and, and the way that you market it in the way that you set things up? Because I know I have a whole list of things that I would do differently. What words of wisdom would you share?
Erin Marcus 9:41
So a couple of a couple of things. Learning that it's not about you sooner in the game. Yep. Right. Learn that you're in the game. For nonprofits I'll throw in there you're still running a business. Don't forget that you are running a business. If you don't receive money, you have no entity. He, in a business, if nobody buys the widget, there is no business, you're still running a business, which means the core values of a business still exist. So to that, I would say, understanding one of the big mistakes I made in the beginning, was understanding the difference between growing my audience and nurturing my audience. And then these are two different things. And I did a magnificent job of creating a teeny, tiny audience and then nurtured the hell out of both. But But I didn't do a great job, because we're pushed outside of our comfort zone. So we gather our little group of people. And now we're happy because we did the thing. And now, I feel a little safer. Now with these people, they already raised their hand, they're just kind of like you, I'll talk to you a little bit more. So let's nurture the heck out of him, right. But if you don't, if it's not minimally 5050, where your efforts to grow your audience are at least as robust as your efforts to nurture the audience, you have you run out of pond to fish and you run out of potential donors. And it's,
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] you get into that feast or famine cycle.
[Erin Marcus] Yeah. And if you just leveled it out where we're going back to my personal journey, if I would have just leveled it out, and did just as good a job growing and intending to meet new people as I did interacting with the people I didn't you know, and it's again, it's human nature. It's like, Oh, my God, you said, You like me, you're kind of in my thing. Yeah. And then you feel good, because you're busy, busy busy. Hugging all the people who said maybe to you, and you forgot to go find some new people?
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, I think that is true. And I think the opposite is also true in organizations where a lot like the retention rate for donors is terrible. So take this, flip it whichever way it is for your organization, that works both ways. Because if you're like, you've already done all this work to acquire all these new donors, and then we have this mindset shift of, well, we can't continue to market to them once they gave us money. So like, what kind of marketing techniques would you share or recommend, like, once you've got these donors that are coming in, if you're doing a great job at bringing people in? How would you kind of share best practices on nurturing them without always doing the well, we need more money and we need reading leads are
[Erin Marcus] number one, and I watched this with charitable organizations. It takes a minute, it doesn't happen in the first year, it takes a minute. But you will teach people through your behavior, how to give you money, you want to actually teach them that. So for example, if you are an entity that holds a large Gala, once a year, there is a chance your donors won't give you money during the year, because they're waiting for the big exciting auction at the gala to make the big print, you know, raise the paddle make, right? It's risk. It's it's reward the behavior, everybody claps when you raise your paddle. So I'm going to give you money all year long. I'm going to wait. So I get to play, I want
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] that recognition. Right? I
[Erin Marcus] want the recognition. I want the excitement, I want to be part of it. So you're Don't forget you're teaching people how to give you money. So that's number one. So think about that ahead of time. It's the same thing in any other know your audience. If your audience is not likely to have expendable income in chunks, how else could you get them involved? How else you have to there's a million different ways to say the same thing. Because I work it's you know, we kind of have an edge on it. Because I do so much with wildlife. Let's just face it. There's all sorts of fun things we can do all year long for events. I've got to meet a porcupine. I know turkey vulture like and this is the other thing know your audience. So I've had people tell me that the only way we were going to raise a lot of money was to have an expensive fancy Gala. Because that makes people you know reciprocal in nature. If they get this expensive, fancy experience, they'll give more money. That may or may not be true. It sounds like it makes some sense. Okay, fine. But here's the thing my people my people don't want another banquet dinner. My people want to pet a sloth for my people want to meet the turkey vulture. My people want to feed the goose that I show them on my Facebook page when I'm at the rescue. So no, no your audience how can you get them involved not just by sending a check. Well, and you make a
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] really good point I was I was recently having a conversation with an organization that is a foundation for a zoo. And they changed up their silent auction at their event similar to that every auction item was an experience at Zoo. So it was like a private dinner for six people cooked by the chef but like in The Lion King, what I mean, whatever
[Erin Marcus] they had handle, lion cage, but I've done
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] a handful of those experiences. Yeah. And what it does is allows you as the donor to be the hero, because you get to invite these people to this really cool experience, then it allows people to bring in new people, and you're having an opportunity to touch them in a way to show them like more behind the scenes get them more like loving on what you're doing. And I think what people don't understand is, that is marketing.
[Erin Marcus] That is massive mass. Emotional, can you get? Yeah, how more emotional? Can you got? Like, personally, I have participated at the penguin experience. We'll do I got to pet a frickin penguin like come on. Right? People donate to the causes, that means something to them. So most people who you know, and I've watched this with auctions, because I know that's like one of the primary ways. Most of that stuff goes unused. Most of that stuff, I was just at an event last week, it was a business event that happened to have a charitable aspect to it. And it was only three things they were auctioning off, auctioning off, and person after person said, you know, raise their hand, put in a bid. And when they won, they turned around and said sell it again. Yeah. They don't care. Like, I make enough money. If I want my own dinner at XYZ restaurant, I'll just go.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] But that's a good point, too. Because how much effort and time does it take you to go procure those items compared to like, if you just sat down with that person and had a conversation,
[Erin Marcus] or gave them what you were on? The other thing about what you were mentioning with the experiences is it's more in alignment with how our culture is right now, yeah, if you want to get younger people involved in your organization, stop selling them stuff.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] This wasn't gonna be the purpose of this conversation. But since you brought this up, because this is something that I'm literally obsessed on. So like, let's just go, let's just go deep into this for a couple minutes. Because we know our donors are aging out. And we're target, we're still targeting to boomers, instead of targeting to younger millennials and Gen Z. And before you shut me off and say Gen Z doesn't give money. It's not true. And I will, I will stop talking and let you talk to you. We have to understand that Gen Z, older Gen Z and younger millennials are making money in ways that none of us ever expected was possible. And they are going to come into creative ways of doing things, creative ways of brand collaborations, creative ways of all of these things. And if you're not building relationships with them, now you are not going to so
[Erin Marcus] business, your business and tenure. Okay, so why
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] don't what would you say to like organizations that are like, Okay, we want to engage and interact with Gen Z and younger millennials? How like to, like build our long term marketing, like what kinds of ways can we think about having those types of conversations and engaging?
[Erin Marcus] First thing you can do is stop telling them how much they suck? Yeah. And then can we just start there? And it just makes me laugh, because here's the thing, I am now old enough to have been an adult watching more than one generation grow up. Yeah. And at the same time, I am young enough, where my boomer parents and my greatest generation grandparents who are now since gone, but I very much remember, you know, yeah, the idea that every generation is so different. So this is not new. If you go back and look at newspaper articles, my mom was my age, it was how we saw like, this is such a pattern that has it's a pattern perpetuated by the fact that we have 24 hour radio 24 hour YouTube 24 hour TV, we got to talk about something. Let's make up conflict. We used to seriously people, this whole idea of the great resignation, I have quit every job I hate it. Why is this a new idea currently, but the baby boomers recreated how the world worked. Every generation recreates how their world works, that's their job. That's how we move forward. So instead of worrying about it, and the other thing I will tell you is stop believing every single thing you hear on the TV, the thing, they have no money, they're not buying houses, you know what, it's not that they don't have any money, it's that they can't afford that and they're not willing to overpay for the houses doesn't mean they don't have any money sitting there. They don't care about your giant five bedroom house. They don't care about it. They don't want it. They don't want it. But my nieces who are 12 and 14, have already been to Croatia, they've already been like they've been around the world. Because that's more important to their family. So if you want to create, you know, it's a teeter totter, right? It's, as the baby boomers age out as the Gen X. Ages out, we still have the money. But don't ignore the younger people who can contribute who are going to be your next wave.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, because I think it's about building long that long term relationships. So just going back to your initial point is like the marketing we do to bring people in compared to the marketing we do to nurture are equally important. And, you know, I think that there's also a unique opportunity right now to just set up multi generational giving, by creating some experiences that allow your Boomer donors to be the heroes and bring their young their kids and grandkids into the organization to conflict, just to say, like, look at how much we're work we're doing like, this is super cool, because I do think the younger generations care more
[Erin Marcus] about socially conscious they've been, they've grown up with it.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] This doesn't mean you have to get on tick tock, although you could but I mean, you don't have to, you don't have to dance. Um, so yeah, so that's just I think something that's not talked about enough. So when you brought that up, I got super excited. So thank you for that.
[Erin Marcus] Well, and it's also I'll throw one more thing at you why this is so hard for people. Because our economy for quite some time, has been moved to very, very short term thinking. To me, has moved. So back when I was in corporate, I was in financial services. And we had some insurance companies we worked with, that were privately held. And we had some companies we worked with that were publicly held. And you could see the difference in that a publicly held company only focuses on short term goals. Because every quarter when those earnings come out, we're either praised or annihilated. And a privately held company with stakeholders that understand long term planning isn't quite under that much pressure. But again, if you go back to and I have a degree in communication, so like watching what has happened to the TV in the news and taught and information in this country, when you go back to the idea that we have to fill, massive, massive, massive amount of hours with information, and now we have cable channels that are dedicated to just talking about money
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] about Yeah, so they
[Erin Marcus] talk about earnings, and they talk about earnings, and they talk about earnings. But we've all learned that if you only if you run a private business, with a 90 day goal, and nothing further, you might feel all flexible, but you're also you're not able to make great decisions that way.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, where are you going to picture? Yeah, yeah. So with that being said, because I agree with all of that, um, as you look forward to 2023? Kind of, are there any big things you see shifting do youth? Do you kind of see things? Like how do you kind of see things playing out? Because I think there's a lot of uncertainty. And so as we kind of get through this year, like, what are you going to jump on? And maybe what are you going to let go of a little bit within your own marketing strategies.
[Erin Marcus] The biggest thing that I've already built into my calendar are smaller, intimate experiences in my marketing calendar, not just my client calendar, but in my marketing calendar, exclude so what happens again, being old enough to visit once now. Yay. What happens in a recession, the money doesn't go away, it moves around, doesn't disappear. There's more money now than there ever was. It moves around. The people with a lot of money still have a lot of money. And they're still willing to spend a lot of money. It might be different people with a lot of money but there's the money's still there. And exclusive, customized in part Person opportunities. There is such a longing after everything we've been through in the last two years, like, my business has blown up in the last couple of years, because now I'm not the only one who's comfortable on Zoom. I was already online with people, but now it's normal. I don't have to convince somebody. It's okay. So that's been amazing. But the downside of that is, we are all just starved for in person experiences. I mean, you're seeing that with the travel industry, you're seeing that across the board. And so don't ignore that trend. What could you do? And it doesn't mean it has to spend a lot of money. But what could you do for your top 10? donors? What experience could they purchase from you in an intimate, exclusive setting that immerses them in the cause? Yeah, because people just want that.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I think that is super fun. And if you're sitting here thinking like, well, I have no idea what that would be. This may sound stupid, simple, but you could just ask them,
[Erin Marcus] just Yes. It's like the biggest marketing trick known to man. Just don't ask. It's not that right. It's not that hard. Don't if your brain automatically says no, take that as a sign that you're like, in a little bit of resistance. It's okay. We can do things differently than it's always been done. But the number one secret that every marketing person knows is if you don't know the answer, just go ask them what they want.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] They'll tell you, they'll tell you. Yep. And then they feel special, because they're part of creating this thing. Yeah,
[Erin Marcus] it's so funny with my clients as a coaching on growing their businesses, and they can't make the decision, or do I do this? Or do I do that? And I'm like, Well, you have 15 people in the group? Have you asked them what they wanted yet. And they just look at me, like, just go,
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I didn't know we could do that. I think we think that makes us look like we don't know what we're doing. Or we don't know how to fundraise, or we don't know how to market our organization. But in reality, if we don't get out of our own way, then we're bringing our own bias. Just to your point, you said at the very beginning of this podcast, like, you know, we think what we're doing is so amazing. And it probably is because we're ingrained in it. But I had a conversation the other day with another entrepreneur. And I was like, you know, we have because they were complaining about employees and how they can't ever hire people that care, and like that want to do good work. And I was like, nobody's gonna care about your organization as much as you did. You created it, you're leading it, you're hiring employees are not hiring, you know, the champions, they might be that. So we get in our own heads, we feel a certain way. And we want to present a certain way. But that doesn't always resonate perfectly. So we need to make sure we're putting those those people first, our donors and the people we serve and speaking to them, not speaking to us. Exactly. Exactly.
[Erin Marcus] And realizing, again, you know, it's not, it doesn't say anything bad about you, that you don't know something. I don't know where this comes from, for me. I really don't. But it has served me so well. That I have absolutely no problem raising my hand and saying, I don't know what you're talking about. I remember in my finance class in my MBA, the instructor had walked us through this series of calculations, and I followed along and I got, it's like, and this is what you should end up with. And I got it. And I was really proud of myself for pressing the buttons, but I raised my hand and he said yes. And I said, I got the right answer. I have no idea what just happened. I don't know why. I don't know what you know. Yay. Following Instructions be I don't know. You're trying
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] to replicate that again.
[Erin Marcus] It's fine to not know.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yep. Yep. Well, Erin, I think so many good things for people to think about a lot of mindset shifts. I love that, like, a lot of what we talked about was marketing, but not from a traditional sense and more about building relationships and just being a good human and being authentic. I think, um, you know, that's a message that I love to spread and share. But if there's any kind of last words of wisdom you would like to give, give folks on how to really help them. Either get in front of more people or just grow their business like what kind of what words would you share?
[Erin Marcus] You can ask, I have two questions that I asked myself every day, usually in the shower, just waiting to be so darn long, five feet tall, it takes me an hour to get ready. But this is two questions I asked. In a world of unlimited opportunity, or in a world of limitless possibilities. How could this work? Right? In a world of limitless possibilities? How could this be easy? Because we get stuck. And if you're obsessed with the problem, you can't solve the problem. So you have to like flip your brain around and say, okay, in a world of infinite possibilities, that's how I usually phrase it in a world of infinite possibilities. How could this work? And you'll be amazed at what you'll come up with? Because it switches off the automatic no in your brain. And then the other question I asked myself all the time, is, Where can I be 1%? braver? Like, because the idea you come up with is usually have you ever noticed if someone says, How much money do you want, you get an idea. And then you push it aside instantly and say, a different number. That first number was your true desire. So we do the same thing with marketing, we do the same with so many things. Like, if you could have whatever you want, what would it be, so we get up impulse. And then we push it away, because logically, we come up with 75 Different reasons, we can't have it. So yes, those two questions together kind of helped me break through that. In a world of infinite possibilities, how could this work? And it's like, okay, then how can I be even 1% braver with it?
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] That is brilliant. And I think, especially genius, when we think about, like, let's say our organization is serving to working to end childhood hunger. Odds are, you're never going to end childhood hunger. But that doesn't mean that the work that you're doing isn't incredibly impactful. So I think that question also kind of opens it up. Because I think a lot of times, we might say, Well, I'm never going to completely solve this problem. So we might get in our own heads about like, going outside the box to like, do that 1% thing that might still like make a 5,000% bigger impact.
[Erin Marcus] Right. And you know, like they say, we hear this say all the time, it didn't change the world, but for that person, it changed their world. Yeah.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And that can go on to change the world for other people. And yeah,
[Erin Marcus] I mean, it Yeah, it humans going back to what we talk about neuroscience, humans have a tendency to think in all or nothing terms. Yep. And it messes us up. Because if we can't solve the world's version of the problem, we do nothing. Yep. And that's not how problems get solved.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] That I think that's such a good place to stop where you repeat those two questions one last time. Because I just think that's beautiful.
[Erin Marcus] Sure. So again, you can do them in the shower, or you can do I personally have a waterproof reading in the shower foryou.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I have one of those too. I love it. But in a world
[Erin Marcus] of infinite possibilities. How could this work? And then, okay, and where can I be 1% braver with it? Oh, good.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, Erin, if people want to learn more from you get some of your resources connect with you. How do they do that?
[Erin Marcus] The easiest, easiest place, it's all in one place. It's the website, https://conqueryourbusiness.com . So if you go to conquer your business.com, there's freebies, there's social, there's contact forms. I love those videos.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And we will have everything linked up in the show notes at https://thefirstclick.net/190 . Erin, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you to Erin for joining me on this episode. It was fantastic. Write those questions at the end. I love step in to the marketing step out of fear, and really make sure you can do the most with your organization. Your impact is huge. Your opportunity for impact is huge. So let's use marketing in a way to help you get a bigger voice. You can get all the show notes for this episode at https://thefirstclick.net/190. And I hope you'll subscribe wherever you listen, we have new episodes coming out on Tuesdays. We have some fun stuff coming up in March that I'm really excited to share with you. But for now, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate being here with you. Every week go to https://thefirstclick.net/youtube to grab the video versions of these episodes and I will see you in the next one.