Workforce issues are still here and figuring out the right people to have on your team is critical. In our last episode we talked with Karin Davis about how to build creativity into your team and how that relates to retention and collaboration and finding the right people. In this episode, Rachel Carey-McElwaney shares her tips for recruiting those critical employees and also shares tips for how you can set yourself up for success if you're looking for that perfect job.

What you'll learn:

→ how to create a holistic work environment.
→ navigating the interview process.
→ why well-being is critical for your culture.
→ managing multi-generational needs in your workplace.

Want to skip ahead? Here are key takeaways:

[4:59] Wait for the right person. It might take longer than you'd like to find the right person but when you do you'll find that they last longer and the stress is less. Give yourself the time to find the right person. Make sure you're also taken into consideration your capacity to teach. It will help you in determining what skills are must have and what you're willing to train on.
[11:51] Understand what your culture is so you can find those that fit. Understanding how you work and how you want your team to work will help you find the qualities that are cohesive. For example, do you want some who is more comfortable in a reactive or proactive environment. There are no right or wrong answers here. Be really honest with yourself and how you want the workplace to feel.
[17:58] Use this information for your volunteers and board members also. Building your culture as a nonprofit involves more than just paid employees. You want to ensure the volunteers and those representing your organization are also in alignment with what you're trying to build. Having an interview process for volunteers that are more involved can be critical.
[27:13] Generational differences are now a new thing. Each generation has their own take on the world that can bring diversity into the workplace. Having the culture that is held strongly is important to ensuring everyone feels heard, respected and has a place regardless of their generational biases.
[31:33] References checks are not used in the way they could be. When checking references have better questions that aren't opinion based. Ask about their skills and examples of their work instead.

Full Transcript

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] We've been hearing this across the board workforce is a problem, and how do we bring in the right people to fill the right roles? Whether they're employees or volunteers or board members? How do we know what it is that we want to bring in? Well, we talked last week about creating that culture in your business. And today, we're going to talk with Rachael Carey-McElwaney way, about how to find those people and what to ask them in the interview process. Or if you are looking for a new job, how to kind of go about it so that you find the right fit. Because we know that it's not just about the skills and the job, that's part of it. But we know we also want to make sure we're in a place that is fulfilling our own personal vision and mission, all while doing good and great in our community.

So today, Rachel Carey is a certified energy leadership coach that focuses on helping leaders and entrepreneurs to rise to find their signature leadership approach, meet the demands of today's result oriented environment and avoid burnout. Rachel has a background as a senior level HR professional, as and is an ICF certified coach. She specializes in energy leadership, coaching, career strategy, and mindfulness practice.

Now, I know this isn't a digital marketing therapy type conversation. But again, I really think it's important that we have the right teams in place, so that we can be the best as we can, as leaders, as employees, and really make the biggest impact with the great work you're doing in your organization. It takes a team. And now more so than ever, it's harder to find that team. So hope you enjoyed this episode. It's a great one.

But before we get into it, this episode is brought to you by our digital marketing therapy sessions. You want a 30 minute consultation with me to work through any of the problems that you're having work one on one and create some solutions and strategies to keep you moving forward towards your goals. You can book that at https://thefirstclick.net/officehours , can't wait to work one on one with you and get to know you and your organization better. Again, that's https://thefirstclick.net/officehours. Let's get into the episode.

[INTRO] You're listening to the digital marketing therapy podcast. I'm your host, Sami Bedell-Mulhern. And each week, I bring you tips from myself and other experts, as well as hot seats with small business owners and entrepreneurs to demystify digital marketing and get you on your way to generating more leads and growing your business. 

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hey, everybody, please join me in welcoming Rachel Carey-McElwaney to the podcast. Rachel, thanks for being here.

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] Thanks for having me.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] We are not talking digital marketing today on the digital marketing therapy podcast, we are instead talking about how to really maximize your workforce, we've been talking about culture, and why that plays such a big role in in how we kind of integrate and how we work with each other and how we build an awesome culture and environment. But Rachel, why don't you kind of share why this is such a passion for you. And kind of why creating a holistic happy space for employees to thrive is something you love.

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] Yeah, and big, big passion of mine. And so my background started in human resources, I've got over 20 years and human resources. And I broke out a little while ago to focus more on leadership development and helping people realign to something they really want to do. And what they want to do. I mean, you can find joy in collecting trash, right? As long as it checks your boxes. And it gives it lines up to your life as you want it. So a lot of times people hear that and they think, Oh, I have to have this deep purpose. It's not it's not about that. It's more just about aligning ourselves so that we can be more joyful, because met the workplace has a way of taking it all out of you. And I think we've all had those moments and those workplaces that we've been in that have made us feel that way a time or two. And I think that we are better selves when we are happier and aligned in our workplaces.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, I think that's critical. But I also think like if we as input, like if even if you have a two people team, or if you have a 50 people team, right? Like it starts with really being rooted in who you want to be. Because I might have all the motivations in the world. But if I go to work for your company, and there's not alignment there, then no matter what, and doesn't mean somebody's a bad person, it's not going to be the right fit.

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] It's not the right fit. Exactly, exactly.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So how do we right now so let's just assume for the sake of this conversation, we as our company kind of know what our culture is, we know where we're going, we know what we want. How do we get out of the mindset because workforce is such a hot topic right now. Of Well, if I don't, this person has all the best qualifications on paper if I don't hire them, no matter what, no matter what red flags are coming up, there's nobody else that's going to come behind them. Like how do we navigate through that right now?

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] I think that it's worth waiting for the right person always aligning to what is good, better best and a selection process like what are my must haves? Can they check all these boxes off? And then what would be a dream to have kind of thing? And so what I'd say to the organizations out there is thinking about within your culture, and within that position, what are the values that are really important for somebody to have? What is what is the general consensus within the organization for how people need to show up? And also, what are the necessary skills in order for somebody to be successful in this? And if they have all the values, and not all the skills? What is your capacity to train? Yeah. And as you're assessing that person, what is their capacity to learn? And then maybe that's the right person, but I think it's breaking it down. i We do we encourage good, better best on goal setting when we're talking about leaders managing employees, but I think when we're going through the hiring process, we can go to the same same method and say, what is good, better best for the ideal person for this role?

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, in so it kind of goes back to also like, what are the things that we can teach people to do versus what are the skills that are, are things we can't like, sometimes, as obvious as it is, customer service is not something you can necessarily teach? Some people just have a you can, but some people just have like that natural customer conversation, right? Like, sometimes there's just skills that just come naturally to people that are going to be more important to the role than maybe some of the things like how to learn Excel, or how to work inside of your CRM.

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] Yeah. And I think that the person's capacity is one part of the equation. But I think it's important, as you're stepping into hiring to truly answer, what is my capacity to teach, because sometimes, you're in a position where you need the right person to be able to jump in and take it, you don't have the time to manage or train them, you need somebody that has that strong skill set. And then that's important in selecting the right person. But you cannot be in that specific, that position of not having the ability to train or the capacity to train truthfully, like when really honest with ourselves. I know a lot of times we think we can do all the things. But when we look at the platter that we're holding, and thinking about what is the reasonable plate? And how much have we already overextended ourselves, do we have the capacity to train or what is another way that we can train because that will be critical? And bringing somebody up to speed? And I think that that's somewhere where a lot of leaders cut themselves short? A lot of times it's like, oh, I can do it. Yeah, you're capable of doing it? Do you have the capacity to do it?

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] What should you be the one doing that?

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] Are you the right person to teach? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think that that's a big component of it.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, let's flip this and come from the employee standpoint, if you're out there looking for a new job, or you're looking maybe you've realized that the organization you're working for is not the right fit? What are some key ways or questions we might be able to ask to find out if they're, if that company's values are in alignment with kind of where we want to be? Yeah, I think starting with what are your values? What are your missions? What are your visions, right, which some companies have nailed down, and others and I've been in all different sizes, large ones that have no idea and little ones that have an idea, but they haven't practiced it. So they couldn't tell you on the, you know, there's where's that wall that I can get it from?

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] But so I think that one is, when that's important within your organization to practice it and bring it into the conversation on a regular basis. So it is top of mind, then when you're recruiting, know that those employees, those potential employees are gonna come and ask so you as a candidate, flipping it back to this place coming in, you want to know what their mission vision values are, you might be able to find that through your research ahead of time that might be on their website, so you might already have it. And think about how that aligns look at anything about where this company has been in the news. And what that means to you what, what types of things are they putting out there? What is the image that they're trying to create? And just see if that feels right, and as an alignment for you. And the other thing that I tell all of my career strategy clients is flip the script. So behavioral based interviewing questions are, are very commonly used in talent acquisitions. So when you're doing the recruiting when you're interviewing somebody, oftentimes leaders will use that technique. I teach the candidate to do the same. So what a behavioral based question is, is tell me about a time when. So for example, I had a career strategy client who came to me who was looking to work for a company that was more proactive. She had been with so many companies that were reactive in her position and the organizations were where the reactivity really rolled down the hill to so she she was left with lifting that so she wanted to be with a company that was better aligned with her values of I'm being proactive. And so she gave an example of Tell me about a time when a client asked you to do something that was outside of the normal scope or outside of the normal capacity for the organization? How do you address that question? Because that answer then tells her are they going to be people pleasing to the client and let that roll down the hill for her to be reactive to and respond? Or are they proactive? And like, we can't we we look ahead to see where our capacity fluctuations are. And so we're able to better assess we check in with the person who's responsible for this too, before we answer, then she could get her answer on do they align to this value of productivity? Now, if you walk into your interview, and you ask, Are you proactive? Right? Probably gonna say yes, yeah, sure. That's the right answer. But if you if you give it a Tell me about a time when you can hear an example of how those things typically play out, and then you can get a real good sense of what are their values. So as a candidate, just like I entered into with, when we're going to recruit, get clear on what the values and skills are for the candidate, get very clear on what your values and skills are, so that you can flush that out in the comparison, it makes it a lot easier.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, I think it's similar to when we write website copy, like you want to use words that are general that other people can attach their own feelings, emotions and biases to right like, are you proactive could mean like, it could mean to somebody like, you know, are you communicating ahead of time with the team or, you know, it could be very team focused or proactive, could be very client focused. So I love that example. Because we're being very specific. And like, I want to know these types of things. So that I can make my decision and or also give my experience to you in a way that also is in alignment with what your, the company you're interviewing for feels. Right, right, because everybody wants

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] to feel like they're making a difference that they're making an impact, it feels good to, to know that you are contributing. And so to be able to do that, and to find that alignment is powerful, but then, if you work for an organization that's doing things that feel icky, or, or frustrating or anger you because you are a proactive person, and reactivity just drives you bonkers. Or if you feel like the proactive people are so structured, right? Like you might be a reactive person and prefer that type of environment. Mine was just from an example of somebody the opposite. So being proactive might feel too stringent and too mapped out and not be able to go with the flow as much as maybe you like this other. So knowing yourself, and knowing your organization, are very critical in that whole process. And I think that sometimes we jump into the structure of it, and I was talking to somebody yesterday, it's so often somebody is like, I have to go into the resume, or a recruiter goes, I have to jump into the job description. And it's like, well, before you go there, back up, what are the values and skills and and the other thing I'll say back to I keep flipping, I'm going to ping pong with you back between leaders. I love it. This is my world. So ping ponging back over to the leaders. for them. It's think about a time where you had someone that was just an amazing fit within the organization or in the role. How did you know they were an amazing fit? what ways do they show up? How are they responding to these different issues? And then the flip somebody that was not a good fit? What were the lessons you learned? What were the things that are signs that might not be a good fit for you? And the same thing, I'm going to flip back now to the candidates and say it same thing. Look at it from the perspective of what was a time where I felt really great working under a particular leader, or for a particular organization? What made me feel really great about that? And what were the things that felt icky and misaligned. And what how did I know that it was icky and misaligned, what was happening now? How can I ask a question, to understand that without just being pointed and direct so that I can get a true sense of how they align with those questions?

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Is it ever okay? In those situations, when you feel that misalignment, to literally say to somebody, you know what, like, we think you're great, we'd maybe think you're not. So I'll ping pong back with you, on the company side to say like, we think you're great, we maybe don't think you're the right fit for our organization based off of ABC, but like, here's some other companies that we would be happy to refer you to. And on the flip side to say, I don't know that we're the right fit, just based off of my work style, but I have these other people that I know in my network that might also be great recommendations, like is that ever an appropriate thing? Or do you just kind of let that go?

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] I had that happened to me once in my own like job seeking process. And I sent that HR person flowers and said, Thank you, because I thought it was so impactful. Because that's above and beyond. So do you need to do that? No. But you absolutely can and so it could be that it was you know the the values of this organization only required data are the skills that we really need to have as data. And we don't have really the capacity to train that right now. But I know somebody that's looking for x, and I think you'd be an amazing candidate for that. Can I connect you? What candidates gonna hate that? I ended up declining the one that was kicked to me because for me, the commute was a top value. Yeah, no commute was going to be a nightmare. And I was like, No, thank you. And the person lived in the same similar area to me. And they said, No, I totally get it. That is a it should be a short drive. And it is not kind of situation. So they understood too. So just being honest with that is like with yourself, this isn't going to be the right fit, because, but it's also Brian to cut the person loose just because you're like, Oh, I personally just once because in the interview question, I said, Tell me about a time where you failed at something. And what happened, and they came back with it's my boss's fault, it's my boss's fault. And it's my boss's fault. And I was like, Well, I will be your boss. So that's a lot for me to navigate, where's the ownership, and they're like, some of it may very well have been your boss, but there's something in there, that is a learning opportunity for you, and you're not there. So I legitimately cut that person loose right after that interview. That was that was it for us. And I think that it's important, because you don't want to waste their time, and you don't want your time. Because time is valuable. And so cutting it loose, where it needs to be loose, and referring them if you have a referral. Or just saying, you know, it's not the right fit for this particular job, but we'll consider you in the future. Or please look for other opportunities in the future. Because we would love we think you'd be a great fit for the company, just not this role. Those are fine things to say. Things you don't want to ask about. Most people listening probably know, but you don't want to ask about like, do they have children? Are they married? What religion are they?

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, I mean, I've interviewed I mean, I'm sure you have to you, you have probably interviewed at places where they do like, like, in the beginning, before the interview, or after the interview, they're just having banter and like having conversation and but you know, they're trying to pull all that stuff out of you.

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] It's so funny, because I'm just a general open book. But I remember the one company I ended up working with for about a decade, I remember interviewing and volunteering the information, because I didn't care if you want to, if you want to discriminate against that, you probably should do it now, because I'm gonna show up as a mom, right? So let's just do that. But I remember this CFO going, I didn't ask I didn't very, he's very concerned. He has like palms left a palm print on the desk, he was like, so like sweaty because I gave him the information. So typically, you might make people feel uncomfortable, as I learned through that experience, by get by providing that information. And you might open up some challenges, some risk for your company, if you ask those questions, so just not that it was there, but it was put out there. So now we've covered that now we've covered that.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Okay, so we didn't prep for this part ahead of time, but I'm gonna throw this out to you, I think you can handle it. Um, as we think about like our culture, like for nonprofit organizations, our volunteers are very much a part of that culture also. So like, in your opinion, you know, as we kind of think about the volunteer, you know, like an event, volunteer, whatever. But as we think about the different roles, would you approach like the regular recurring office roles and like board member roles and things like that, like going through almost the same interview process that you would for a regular employee?

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] Absolutely, absolutely. Because those are going to be the volunteers are gonna end up being the face just as much an employee would. And the board is making decisions like to take the company in a particular trajectory. So absolutely, they should be aligned, you would hate to have somebody on the board, and have it be in complete conflict to what you're trying to accomplish as a nonprofit. The poll of that is just going to get you off track more often than you would like, I think it's a very important thing to make sure you have alignment. And there are employees, and they're just not with that official title. Right? They are representatives of the organization. So what would your pep

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] pep talk be to that organization that has, you know, like, one or two employees, and they lean a lot on volunteers, they're like, well, they're volunteering their time. Like, we can't, we can't put them through this process. Like that's gonna scare people away. Like, what would you kind of say to that mindset,

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] so don't make it in interview, have a cup of coffee with them and have a conversation. And that takes away the the fear of the test right out of it. And instead you're just getting to know them. And so tell me about tell me about you know, what got you interested in our organization. Tell me about a time where you did this like how are you might come across this as a volunteer how might you tackle it was kinds of things to flesh it out to because you want to make sure that it's aligned, and if you want to decrease there Beer, if you notice that your volunteers have a little bit of that, and you want to make it a little bit more informal, you absolutely can. But you definitely want to have a conversation at the end of the day. That's what the interview is, right? It's just a conversation. We're getting to know each other having a coffee date, let's have a chat. You know, it's the same as like when we're networking with other people. So tell me about what you do. And tell me about who you are. And tell me about what you're looking for. And how can I help you? It's the same idea when we're interviewing. We just kind of personal, yeah, no, I love

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] this so much. Because it just kind of takes like, I think a lot of times we think the interview process or the hiring process, it is a formal process. But that doesn't mean it's an impersonal process. And I think regardless of which side you're on, we come into it with this whole, like, you know, nobody likes to go through the hiring process, no matter what side you're on, right. It's tedious, and it's cumbersome. So I think, you know, approaching it in some of the ways that you're talking about make it feel more like we're just trying to find our next best friend who is going to come in and work on the office with us everyday. Right? Regardless of what side you're on, that's going to

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] complement my management style, and also fill in the gaps of what is not being accomplished through the players that are already here. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think we had talked a little bit about well being and I think that well being is so critical, in the years ahead, like we're seeing that the increased level of stress, and, and, and everything else that's kind of on the plates of our of the people in our society, that it shows up in the workplace. And well whether or not the workplace is the driver of the stress, the well being itself is so critical to getting good talent to getting, you know, getting the best of the best that you want for your organization to increase the retention. So you're not having to fill the roles constantly. But also when you're happier, you do better. You know, and we've talked to anything before, it's like when you're really really stressed. It's like your, your scope gets real tight. And you can only see like, you're you're moving through the weeds, you're getting the weeds done. But when things are really great, and you're feeling like you're in the flow with everybody, you start seeing more opportunities. People are more innovative, they have more ideas, there's more synergy. Which workplace Do you want to work with? The one that's in the leads and tedious are the one that's like flowing and excited and fun. And so not only does that then impact the organization impacts the people and impacts the community's so well being in general is just really great to focus on. But right now in this in this state that we are globally in this kind of grabbed from the Gallup state of the global workplace, they put out a report for 2022. And it stressed the importance of focusing on well being and having people kind of ask like, what is it that will we can do to impact the well being in our workplace? Right. And I think that while we're talking about recruitment, and we're talking about getting to know each other, I think that looking at how it being prepared to answer like, what are the things that we do to support Well, being now like, there's like flex workplace stuff, there's people bringing in mindfulness leaders, right? There's, there's people coming from multiple directions on what does wellbeing mean. So think about what does wellbeing mean? And maybe that's a great like team project. If you only have one or two people, you can still do that, right? What does wellbeing mean to us as an organization? And then how do we support that? It could be bringing things in, it could be the structure, like we make sure that everybody takes their hour lunch, we don't interrupt during that time we on our boundaries, we like don't call after you fight whatever it is, like there's all kinds of answers that are simple. And other answers that are more complex that might work for your organization, be prepared to answer that.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, I think that's great in alignment with your values. Like it doesn't have to be like we have a coffee bar, and we offer free lunch. And we like it doesn't have to be all these things that cost money. It could be like how many organizations don't even have a communication plan. Like I as like, like you said, you showed up to your job. I'm a mom, like you might have parents that have young kids, and they can't work during certain hours of the day. So they're shooting off emails at two three in the morning while they're nursing their little one, right? But even something as simple as we have a communication plan where you can communicate whatever you want, but the expectation is that the responses don't need to come like just little things like that are great for well being and cost you $0

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] Yeah, I think that we can simplify this whole concept of well being to instead of this being human resources, which I totally came in and said I've 20 years, right? That's what they call it. That's what they call the enemy. You're the enemy. I am I know, but that's why I moved out of it because I'm really not my intention is to align and support and so really, instead of looking at them as human robots that are going to produce a sad look at this person as a whole person. When they come to work. We have blended technology, and the technology itself has blend at home and work life, both ways, both ways. And, and having been in there were the first time laptops start because I'm old, the first time laptops and gosh, blackberries started coming home and being in trouble because you weren't responsive and quick enough, like going through that stage of it, and to now where we're at where it's just commonplace that there's this flow happening, we're working from home, my dog might start barking, my child might walk in the room like this is more normal now. And before we were still trying to say No, everything is separate, except for I want to get into your personal life right? Now the expectation is, let's treat the person as a whole person, they have a life and this life matters. This life matters. And what are the things that matter to that individual? When you find out what matters to that individual, you're going to be a better leader for that person to, you're going to know, what are those expectations? My, my, my daughter is 24. She had like the best date the other day. And I was like, what makes the best date and she's like, we talked about boundaries and expectations. For that's impressive, I was like, This is amazing. But like, that's what that generation, she's Gen Z. That's what that generation is. There's a lot of value in that. And I think that's incredible. I would have never thought to set that out. You just navigate that differently.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So I'm glad I'm so glad you said that because I am an elder millennial. And I have Gen Z kids. So like, I'm on the top end of the millennial spectrum, my kids are like near the bottom end of Gen Z, right. But, but like Millennials have gotten so much flak for the work life balance, they want Gen Z is going to push it even further. But I like the example that you shared, because it's not about not wanting to work or not caring, it's about like, I will do my best for you. I can but like, I'm not going to put up with a lack of like, I'm not going to give my life to my job that's not necessarily going to give its life to me. So like what kind of pep talk might you give to, you know, the boomer generation, or what's above Millennials or something else? Gen X?

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] Well, Gen X, and I'm in this place where I have an identity crisis, because I'm sandwiched between x and millennials. And sometimes they say no to me to x, and sometimes this sandwich mean a millennial. And sometimes it gives me my own title of Xenial. And I don't know what I am. But I've really seen it like I'm like, I don't know, I'm in this bridge. And it's interesting that I'm in this bridge that was created by other people, because I've always looked at myself as a bridge, as an HR person and looked at myself as the person I was connecting the employees and connecting the organizations. And then what I will say to your question is it's the same thing, so to the boomers that are continuing to work that had to work hard and work for their organizations, and the work ethic was the strongest and you gave your all. Thank you. But also, thank you for also showing us why that wasn't the right way. Because the health issues that came up, I watched so many of my family members that were boomers drop out of the workforce because of extreme health issues by putting themselves last and putting their work first. So to the boomers, thank you for both doing it, but then also helping us see why that's not the way the xers sometimes get better, because they had to work to meet the expectations of the boomers. So even though we wanted that work life balance, oftentimes, we felt like we had to fall in line. And so there are some actors out there that are like, yeah, go ahead, millennials and Gen Z years, let's make this change happen. But there are others that are like, Hold on, I had to fall in line, why don't you have to fall in line, right? And so there's a stressor there. But when you think about it, at the end of the day, I get it, it feels, it feels like if your values are to give out to the company and put your faith in the company, that somebody's coming in saying, Well, yeah, except I'm going to have these boundaries, I'm gonna have these breaks that that can feel out of alignment. So think to yourself, why do I value this? And then ask them, Why do you value that? And maybe it's about getting to know each other and respecting each other on the different values? Because I think that instead of fighting, right, instead of like, coming, you're wrong. No, we're right. Instead of being in this battle, let's have a conversation and learn more about what that driver is. So

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] if there's boomers, or x ors, or people with a an identity crisis, like me or the millennials, like whatever, whenever they're out there, even the Gen Z is coming in, ask yourself what are my values? And when they start showing up having other values just say okay, tell me more about that. Why is that important to you? Well, and I would say the biggest lesson I have Learn as an entrepreneur is always remembering that nobody cares about your business or your organization as much as you do. You started it. And I know so many of the people that listen to this podcast are have started their own organizations or have been involved in their organizations for a really long time, nobody cares about it as much as you do, nobody coming in is going to care about it, period. But that does not mean that they're not going to give you as much as they can. So I think that just goes back to where you started on as long as your values are aligned. And you can trust that the person is going to show up in the way that you, you know, want them to represent your company and work within your team, the way you want your team culture to be, that's really the best you can hope for.

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] Or even if your organization can respect the values that are different. If you can respect it cool, then that's not going to rub the organization wrong. But if you have staunch like work ethic, and blood, sweat, and tears, and bring in somebody that's not going to have that, there, there, there's never going to be this energy, and you're not going to get the productivity out of anybody you're just going to have you're going to lose energy into conflict, and not into productivity. And so I think that that's part of why that's so important, is just have a conversation.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Mm hmm. No, I agree. I think that's a great place to kind of wrap this up. Rachel, if there's any kind of last words of advice that you would have to anybody that's in the workforce, trying to find their dream job, or those employers that are scrambling to get the right people into their roles? What would you say to them?

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] Okay, this is a complete tangent. So don't, don't be surprised. All right. Ken, let's talk reference checks for a quick second, just quick, because as somebody that has jumped in and done the recruiting for organizations before, what I can say is, half the time references are hand selected, they're going to give you the best opinion of the person, right, so stop asking opinion based questions of the reference checks, because they're gonna be glowing. Otherwise, that person shows poorly. And that's, that's a whole other thing. And I've never seen someone choose a reference poorly. So they've hand selected the people who are going to speak the greatest about them. Instead, ask about their skills, ask them about their examples of their work ethic, their performance, their values, ask for examples there as well. So that you are getting a good general idea of how all these different people are viewing this person in that structure. Because I think that's really important. And so then for the people that are out there looking for the job, pick references that can speak to your skill sets, and your values and your your performance, because you're going to want them to be able to give those examples.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Would you also ask the other company like what some of their core values are so that you can see if they're crazy misaligned, like if not misaligned, but if like they're on a very broad spectrum difference, would you ask that? Or would that not give you any information,

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] you could ask it, if you felt like there was purpose too, I'm shaking my head at you. Because I feel like sometimes people realize they were misaligned. And that's why they're looking for something different, or they learned along the way, or they grew as a human along the way, and they develop different things. You know, I know when I started out in leadership, I was taught to lead a specific way. And that way felt icky. It didn't fit from who I was, but I did it because that was the quote, unquote, right way to do it. And so if you talk to somebody there, the value of that organization, and their leadership was one way, eventually it felt icky. And I left, because I realized that about myself, I learned that about myself. And so then I found another one that that represented themselves one way, and showed up a different way. And then I left like the you may. So I say that to say that organization. You maybe you ask, and you look at how long they stuck it out. And you ask them a follow up question about it if you want clarity, but I don't know that the positioning of the other organization is totally representative of the person because just like you said, earlier, we put blood sweat and tears into the businesses, we create it, they're our babies, right? We have an emotional attachment to them. Nobody's going to have that it's a job. And so they may have gone into that job thinking I can really make a difference. And I can really help this. And then, you know, like, like that one boyfriend you had that you wanted to change and realize you couldn't change for me. I married the guy and then I had a divorce. I'm right. It's just, we all are the same thing within organizations, right? We learn, they went in, they felt they could change it or they went in not realizing it or they went in and they change themselves. There's so much that could come from it. So I don't think that I would, because I tried to be very efficient with it interviewing process. I don't know that I would spend the time on that question. But if someone sees value in it, ask whatever questions you see value in. No, that

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] makes total sense. And I appreciate that perspective. Well, Rachel, I think you gave us a ton of really good nuggets and things to think about on both sides. If people want to connect with you more and see all the amazing things that you offer? How do they do that?

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] I think that the fastest and easiest, easiest way for me to get that information is to point you to my website, which is www dot emerging Lotus coaching.com. And then that way they can connect all my socials, they can see what I'm out there doing and what even the free programs that I have running. And yeah, that's, I think the best way to connect. I

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] love that. And we'll have all that linked up in the show notes at https://thefirstclick.net/183 

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] thing I'll add is one thing that's out there right now. So for anybody that's looking at quitting their job, there is a resignation, a pre resignation checklist that I recommend anybody looking to quit their job, grab and hold because it has all of the HR perspective of money I've seen people walk away from because they didn't, they didn't do some things. So grab your pre resignation checklist.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I love that. Nope, that's super great. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for joining me today.

[Rachel Carey-McElwaney] Thanks for having me.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Okay, so what did you think? Are you ready to get hiring in the new positions for your organization, or maybe reevaluate where you're working and find the perfect fit for you? There are so many amazing causes out there and you're doing great work. So let's maximise on the impact that you can have with the organization and that starts with a great team. Check out the show notes and resources at https://thefirstclick.net/183 to make sure you subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss out on a single episode. They all come out on Tuesdays. And I can't wait to see you in the next one.