Ep 178 | Creating More Mindfulness Around Technology with Rob Krecak
Do you have a healthy relationship with technology? This isn't something that people necessarily think about when it comes to tech and work. Afterall, you have to use it to get things done! Technology is critical in automating, our ability to communicate, setting up systems. That doesn't mean that it needs to take over our lives. Rob is here to share ways to think about our use of tech in the workplace while still maintaining our humanity.
What you'll learn:
→ ways to audit the tech you're using.
→ how to choose technology – what do you really need?
→ maintaining balance in your budget (and not just the cost of the software).
Want to skip ahead? Here are key takeaways:
[8:37] Choosing Your Tech Avoid using software that can have too many features that you don’t need. Simplifying your tech can lead to better productivity and less time spent on projects.
[15:38] Audit Your Tech Take a look at the software you are using every 3 to 6 months. Look into the new features that you can implement, or any features you may no longer need. Avoid adding more tech if you and your staff aren’t fully utilizing the software you currently have
[21:14] Analyze Your Costs The cost of using tech is more than just the fees you are paying for the software. Factor in the cost of you and your staff’s time of using the tech and determine if that software is worth it.
Founder, Humans First
Rob Krecak is a thrill-seeker, self-professed nerd, question asker, voracious reader, competitor, keynote speaker, and business builder.
When he first got his Wall Street job as a sell-side equity analyst out of college, he thought he’d made it. After buying everything he wanted on his wishlist, he realized that he still wasn’t happy. He listened to his deep-down desire to help more people by leaving finance to eventually own three Anytime Fitness health clubs, four uBreakiFix cell phone repair stores, and a tech startup.
As someone vulnerable to technology’s addictive hold from a young age—video games and Facebook in particular—Rob is on a mission to help individuals and companies reduce stress and get back time to master their careers and lives. He founded Humans First to provide a one-of-a-kind consulting experience that analyzes people’s efficiency and energy by paying attention to their technology mindfulness.
Rob thinks there is always something to be learned from everyone, and he lets his curiosity guide conversations. In his spare time, he likes to do CrossFit, better himself through reading, travel, and spend time with his wife Niki. Learn more at http://www.humansfirst.us
We love creating the podcast. If you like what you learned here please give us a tip and help us offset our production costs.
When you leave a review it helps this podcast get in front of other nonprofits that could use the support. If you liked what you heard here, please leave us a review.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Let me ask you this question, technology, friend or foe, productive or distraction. That's what we're talking about in this episode of the digital marketing therapy podcast. Technology is something we need to help build, grow and scale our organizations. But getting it implemented and really figuring out what we want to use, it can all be kind of a pain in the butt. So I have a guest today who's going to share how to be mindful and thoughtful about the technology that we bring into our organization. Rob Krecak is a thrill seeker, self professed nerd, question asker, voracious reader competitor, keynote speaker and Business Builder. When he first got his Wall Street job as a sell side equity analyst out of college, he thought he'd made it. After buying everything he wanted on his wish list, he realized that he still wasn't happy. He listened to his deep down desire to help more people by leaving finance to eventually own three Anytime Fitness health clubs, four you break fix I fix cell phone repair stores, and a tech startup. As someone vulnerable to technology's addictive hold from a young age, video games and Facebook in particular, Rob is on a mission to help individuals and companies reduce stress and get back time to master their careers and lives. He founded Humans First to provide a one of a kind consulting experience that analyzes people's efficiency and energy by paying attention to their technology mindfulness. Rob thinks there's always something to be learned from everyone. And he lets his curiosity guide conversations in his spare time. He likes to do CrossFit, better himself through reading, travel and spend time with his wife, Nikki. We have a great conversation around technology, mindfulness, which I think is something that not a lot of people are talking about. And just kind of, I think you'll listen to this and maybe realize you have some of these concerns, or you've been dealing with some of these experiences as you've been going, but that maybe you just didn't really know what it was. So hopefully this helps you really create that tech stack that's going to help your organization grow, help you remove distractions, so that you can be better communicator, be better with your employees, be better with your loved ones. And just kind of make sure that you're in balance with the technology that is around you. I'm really excited for this conversation. And it kind of brought things home for me too. You'll hear later on. I am so excited. So let's get into this episode. But first, it's brought to you by our nonprofit digital marketing therapy sessions, head on over to thefirstclick.net/officehours, grab some time and pick my brain for 30 minutes. These office hours are a great opportunity if you don't want to have a retainer consultant, but you know, you need some support with things that you have going on. Look, I know it's busy end of Year holiday season, and it's time to hit and kick butt this year. Let's end the year strong together. Thefirstclick.net/officehours, I can't wait to chat with you. Let's get into the episode.
[INTRO] You're listening to the digital marketing therapy podcast. I'm your host, Sami Bedell-Mulhern. And each week, I bring you tips from myself and other experts, as well as hot seats with small business owners and entrepreneurs to demystify digital marketing and get you on your way to generating more leads and growing your business.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hey, everybody, please join me in welcoming Rob Krecak to the podcast. Rob, thanks for being here.
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, thank you so much, Sami, for having me really appreciate the opportunity and really grateful to be here.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So we're talking all things technology, which I feel like you tell me either really gets people excited, or makes people kind of cringe inside like, I don't want to have to try to learn something new. Is that kind of what you come across in your day to day business life?
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, so the way I would describe it is, these are kind of terms that I use. People are really overwhelmed with technology. So I call it technology overload. We just have so many ways to communicate, there's so many things to do, so many emails to check. And then in my mind, the antidote to technology overload is what I help people with. Technology mindfulness, or being aware of the ways that you can use technology that serves you and makes your life easier instead of harder.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Which is what we're all looking for, right? We're all looking for, like more time in our day to be more impactful with the time that we have and to find solutions that help us kind of streamline things. So when we think about technology in our business, like why does that excite you? Like why is technology something that you can see that can make a big impact in like our day to day life?
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, well, the name of my company is humans first. And we're a consultancy that helps you know, helps people with their technology mindfulness and helps transition companies from a five day workweek to a four day work week with no loss in productivity or profitability. And the reason that I named the company humans first is because in America, before COVID, so you can’t say that COVID affected this statistic, but before COVID, the average American spent 12 hours and 21 minutes a day in front of screens in media. In other words, we're spending three quarters of our waking lives using technology. So it doesn't seem that out of reason, then that if you use your technology, well, it could literally positively impact almost every single part of your life, because you're using it for the vast majority of your day. And that gets me really excited because I want people to live a better life and be happier and less stressed.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] That's so good. But I feel like then when we start to think about how technology impacts our life and business, when we start to kind of figure out how we want to kind of move forward on that path, like that kind of becomes a roadblock. Do you think like, where do you start? I love the Humans First. I love the mindfulness piece, because it's all kind of linking to, like, how do we have this work for us? And help us be better at what we want, as opposed to like, how do we kind of go down this rabbit hole of technology taking over our lives?
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, so I understand your question. And I think it's helpful to think of technology as a tool, right? Just like a hammer is a tool, and I could use a hammer to build a house that keeps me safe from the elements and keeps me alive, or I can use a hammer to, you know, hit someone's car, right. So it's not the hammer in and of itself, that's bad. It's how I use it. That's bad. And so I do think technology is the same way, I can use it in ways that really makes my life easier and contributes to my health and well being or I can use it in ways that's detrimental to my productivity and health and well being. So the whole point of my company is to educate people about those ways that it might not be that they might be using technology that doesn't serve them. And then they can decide how they want to change their behavior. I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm here to give you information, and then let you decide how you want to change your behavior.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I love that. Because it's so true. Like we all run our organizations differently, we all have different needs, we all come to the table with different skill sets. So let me ask you this, you know, when you start, or when you have clients that come to you or you start an organization, and everybody comes to the table with will Oh, you need to have this piece, and you need to use this project management tool. And you need to have, you know, this software, and you need to use these computers, like everybody kind of comes to the table like word vomiting, all of the things. So how do you start to sift through? What is the right fit for you and your organization as opposed to just, you know, kind of jumping from thing to thing to thing?
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, so this seems like a simple question. But it's actually a little bit more complicated. And I was reading some studies the other day that talked about the ways we use technology and how appropriate it is for what we're doing and how that can overwhelm us or make us feel anxious or nervous. And just like a lot of things in life, choosing the right technology is a matter of choosing something that is not that is just right, it's not too much. And it's not too little, it needs to do what we need it to do, but not much more. Because if something is way more complicated than we need it to, it actually becomes overwhelming, it becomes like too complicated. And when things are too complicated or overwhelming, humans perceive overwhelm as a threat. And when we feel threatened, we go into this fight or flight mode, and our nervous system gets really amped up and we get really, really anxious and we get really stressed out. Even subconsciously a lot of times this happens, and you don't even realize it's happening. And so if you're using a bunch of technology that has way too much, is too many features and too much for what you're doing. It actually is a negative, even though you might not think it is.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And so how would we start because I agree with that. How would we start to evaluate then the technology that we might be thinking about bringing into our organization?
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, so what's interesting is, when I talk to companies, I think a lot of the time when they're saying to themselves, Oh, we have this problem, right, whatever the problem is, let's say it's like, I need project management software. Okay. So a lot of times what they always think is more software is better, because the business model of software companies is to sell your software that you pay for monthly, and then you use this software for things. But when you think about it, and I'm not saying like this is all software, this is obviously not true. But what a lot of software does is it facilitates communication and collaboration, right? Just in very general terms. That's what it does. And, you know, we don't need 17 ways to communicate and collaborate. We don't even really need five. We, you know, we just need a handful. But if you think about what happens when we add one more method of communication, and actually exponentially increases the complexity. So for instance, let's say we just have only phone calls and nothing else, no email, no text messages, no other way to communicate. There's only one way to communicate. But as soon as we add a second method, now there's four ways to communicate. A third method, now there's nine, and so it actually gets exponentially more difficult. And so when you're evaluating, oh, I have five ways to communicate. And now I add a sixth way, we go from 25 ways to communicate to 36. And this is super overwhelming, and people just don't think about this. And so all this extra ways to communicate and extra work that happens because of that, is actually dragging down your productivity at a certain point, it's not increasing your productivity.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, so I like your point of like, figure out the exact problem that you need to be solved. And how do you kind of figure out what can work in that. And then, so then do you kind of recommend, okay, well, we need a project management tool that can help our whole team know what's going on, and what tasks need to be done. Like, that's what we need to do. So we're gonna research that. And then as we kind of hit the top end of that, okay, this is working, this is running now we need now we have this problem. And going from there and kind of building almost like Legos.
[Rob Krecak] Um, I mean, that's certainly one way to approach it. I can't give a blanket answer to your statement, because there's, you know, each company and organization has many different needs, right? So I can't, you know, it depends on the complexity of your organization, how many employees you have and what you're doing. But generally, generally, what I actually find is that, believe it or not, by taking away software, or ways to communicate and simplifying your workflows, you actually, it's very counterintuitive, but by simplifying your workflows, and doing less, you actually accomplish more, and it becomes way easier to manage.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] No, I yeah, I agree with that. We overcomplicate things in our brains. And I think part of that happens because we start to research some of these tech tools, and we see all these features that we didn't even know that we needed. And so then you were like, Oh, well, now we can do this. And we can have a chatbot. And we can have all of these things. And so to your point, like you're adding in that complexity, when it wasn't even part of the solution that you needed initially.
[Rob Krecak] Right? And, you know, the allure of all this software, right is it's relatively inexpensive. I mean, if I'm saying to myself, Oh, like I pay $10 per user for this, or $5 per user per month for this, and like, oh, that really, that's not a big expense, right? But the thing is, there's a hidden cost, the hidden cost of adding all that stuff isn't the amount that you pay per month, it's the amount of distraction and wasted productivity that your team or your staff now experience, because you added this extra stuff. And that is way harder to measure. But I guarantee you it's way, way, way, way more than the actual amount that you are paying for the software, it's exponentially more.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, I agree with that. You can't, I mean, the time, especially with workforce situations being what they are now, you know, like, you need to make the most of the team that you have. And so technology should be a positive thing, not not a hindrance. And we have the shiny object syndrome. We have to like try our best to kind of shield that and say, maybe, like, I love to have a notebook that's like, Hey, these are the great tools that I want in the future, not right now. But like, these are things that I didn't know, I'm going to research them when they become part of our plans in the future. So this kind of leads me to, if I'm somebody, let's say I'm part of a team, and let's say there's a software or technology piece out there, that would really help me be productive. But I need to, like, you know, do you have any tips or ideas for how people can have conversations with their team around new technology they may need and kind of get people on board with that?
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, so a lot of this stuff that I do with companies and teams and organizations revolves around change management, which is, you know, John Kotter founded this, you know, this industry, and one of the things that I'm a big proponent of is bringing a problem to a group and then asking, you know, facilitating a solution from the group. So what that might look like is, I would say something like, like, let's say, I'm a leader of a group, and I have four other coworkers. And I might say, Hey, guys, I'd like to have a meeting about a certain problem. And then I bring this problem to the group and I say, Hey, here's the problem. Here's the way I'm thinking about how this could be solved. But I would love to hear from you guys. What are the other ways that you think that you could solve this. And a lot of times, you know, people because they have different perspectives and different points of view, they will come up with solutions that you know, you didn't even think about, and a lot of times those solutions don't even involve new software. And they don't even involve you changing a lot. It just, you know, you just had to bring the problem to the group. And the other thing is, if you follow this process, and you come to a solution with a group, then when the solution is arrived at whatever it is, the group is much more likely to comply and be motivated because they feel like they had a say in what the solution was.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, I love that. And the other piece to that too is you might say, hey, this piece of technology will really help me in my job, but the integrations or the implications of that on other people in different parts of the process might be impacted. So it's also a great way to make sure everything kind of plays nice together if you do decide to go down that new tech route.
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, I love your point. I mean, right, what might make my job easier might actually make the entire rest of the team's job harder. And so, you know, obviously I, as a leader, I need to decide what I want to do there. But, you know, to me, it's what is, on the whole, for the whole organization, what does this do to impact productivity or communication? And so I do think that the needs of all the other people in the equation need to be balanced. I totally agree.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So the other thing that I've noticed in my business, as I've been growing, is you kind of add tech pieces here and there. And all of a sudden, I mean, like, just you said earlier in this episode, software solutions, and I mean, all solutions now are really going to this subscription membership platform. And they make the rates a little bit lower, so that it can be something you don't necessarily notice every month on your credit card bill. But it can add up to be dramatic, right, like we canceled our satellite TV so that we could have streaming services. And now when we look at our bill, we're not actually really saving that much money, right? So how often do you kind of recommend, like an audit or review of all of the things that you're using, just to make sure that you are using the things you signed up for, it is helping with productivity and just to manage kind of cost and budget?
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, I mean, I really like your question. And I think it depends, again, on the size of the organization, and your budget, and things like that. But I think if you have the resources, doing a brief audit every three months would be helpful, just because a lot of things, especially in a high growth, high growth company, or a fast moving company, a lot of things can change in three months. And you know, what served you well, three months, three or six months ago might not serve you well now. And so I do think it's important to, you know, to look at that pretty frequently, every three months or so. And then the other thing is, you might be saving some money, if you decide, hey, I'm not using whatever this piece of software and we can just totally ax it. I mean, that can be a substantial amount of money if you do that a couple times a year.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and how I mean, also with how fast technology is changing, with companies adding new features, is it also a great opportunity, like let's say, your phone system, now all sudden, your chatbot company has a phone system, or like you're with Google and they update their product, like does it also kind of create an opportunity to figure out maybe where you can merge different systems?
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, of course, I do think I do think there's a balance, right? So I think it's very smart to look at the landscape of software and see what's happening. And then, you know, be nimble. But the other thing is, excuse me, implementation does have a cost. And again, it's not even the direct, you know, cost, you're paying the software company, but it's the cost that your employees have to learn the new software and use it correctly. And, you know, it's interesting that one of the things that I consistently hear from many, many companies is, we already don't have all of our employees using the software in the way that it's intended. And so we're already losing productivity, because the software isn't being fully utilized. I hear that so often. And so to me, in those companies, where that's being said, I don't think it's appropriate to just add more software, because they're not even using the software that you already have correctly. So I do think it's a balance of trying to figure out how much you add versus how much you take away and how often you change because I do think the bigger the organization, the harder it is to get everyone to change. And then there's the greater the implementation cost becomes.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and I think too, even the smaller the organization, if you're changing all the time, you're wasting valuable time and resources on just kind of staying the course. We say the same thing. Because nonprofit CRMs are a big thing, always changing. There's always new ones, everything has a little bit different features. And our statement is always like pick one and just like just go with it for a while, just stay the course, like don't keep looking at new things. So how do you, I mean, if you're helping organizations with, you know, being mindful about their technology, like how do you kind of keep the blinders on when you're working with clients to where you don't go down that whole rabbit hole? Share your magic with us. Or how do you keep on top of all of this stuff?
[Rob Krecak] Well, I wish I could tell you a very simple answer. Honestly, one of the things that I will try to do, and again like so my background is actually in finance. I used to be a sell side equity analyst. I have researched medical device and pharmaceutical companies for a living. So I would talk to CEOs, CFOs, write research reports and make financial models for a living right. And so one of the things that I will commonly do is help a company understand the, again, hidden costs of what they're doing. So for instance, if they have a meeting, and it has 10 executives in it, and it's two hours a week, and I see that they're having this meeting, and it really isn't accomplishing a lot, what I will do is calculate how much that meeting costs that company every week, and let's say it's $5,000. Right? So you have to tell me, Mr. CEO, how are you getting a return on your $5,000 investment from this meeting every week? Can you explain that to me, because if you can't, then it's time that maybe we reconsider having this meeting. And you can do a similar calculation for literally almost everything in the company, right? Like the cost of implementing the software, the cost of using this, the cost of having this, you know, tool that you're using all those, the costs of those can be calculated in terms of time that it takes the employees to use them. And then you have to, you know, in my opinion, you have to come up with a good justification for that investment. And so when I do those calculations for people, sometimes they're like, oh, like, they're like, I didn't realize that it was like that, you know, yeah, like, but I kind of want them to feel that pain, because that actually is a cost you're incurring, it's just not one, you're not writing a specific check for it every time.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, but it goes back to your statement at the beginning about how you help businesses go from a five day work week to a four day work week. And what does that look like? And I think that terrifies people, in a lot of ways, but if you can monetize it in the way that you just said, then you can very clearly see the difference in revenue, or productivity from a monetary standpoint and see that that day lost doesn't necessarily equate to revenue lost.
[Rob Krecak] Oh, totally. I mean, what's, you know, the number one question that I get from when I talk to companies about this, the four day workweek, is, well, how on earth can I get five days of work done in four days when I can barely get it done in five days, right? And, you know, I'll give you an example. So I actually have a client, she is running for Governor of Colorado. So she's a super busy politician. And she came to me and she was, you know, running her campaign for governor. And she was like, super overwhelmed. And she just said, I can't, you know, I'm really burnt out, I can't do this. This is just, I have way too much stuff going on. So she took this initial client survey that I gave her. And then I worked with her for several hours. And she implemented everything that I said, she was super open minded. And what we found is, after a week, we measured the time that she was using her phone, you know, with screen time, which is a very objective measure on your phone, and you can't like game it, you know, it's built into the operating system. And so what we found is that, after she implemented all the strategies that I shared with her, she saved over 40 hours per week of screen time, she saved a whole work week worth of time every week. Now she is an outlier client. But the point is that these techniques are so powerful that you literally could save way more than a day of time if you're just open minded, and you trust the process.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I think that is gold, what you said, Be open minded and just trust the process. Because I'm, I'd be happy to go down any process that I think is going to create more ease and time in my day. So many good points in everything that you've said, Rob, if you were going to give people, like, your most favorite tip about why being mindful with their technology and kind of taking steps towards a thoughtful approach to their technology, what would you say to people?
[Rob Krecak] Um, yeah, there's one, it's probably subtle. And you know, even I still occasionally do this, because I forget, but so let's say that you are eating dinner with your spouse at a restaurant, right? And you're both sitting at the table, and you both have your cell phones on the table face down, right? Like this is literally happening to millions and millions of couples around the world, right? Yes. So what people don't realize is just the mere presence of your smartphone, even if it's turned off and face down, reduces the feelings of trust, empathy and closeness between two people. And the reason is, when you have that cell phone in, in line of sight, it's essentially taking subconscious you know, thoughts from an attention from you, and you're diverting that attention to your cell phone because it represents you know, something to check or a source of information or information that can be important. And so even if you don't realize it, you are actually not fully present when that smartphone is in front of you and facedown on the table. So I do my very best, and occasionally again, I still forget but I do my very best to like put it in a pocket or actually put it on the chair next to me. So that I don't have that you know, that subconscious thought going to my cell phone and so I can really be present with my wife or my friend or whoever I'm talking to.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I love that and I I think you're so true. And there's people in the back of their heads that are saying, well, I have kids at home, and I need to be able to access my phone. If the sitter needs me and blah, blah, blah, but you can, you can put your phone away for a good 30 to 45 minutes and just be present.
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, and what I would say to those people, and again, like a lot of what I do is coach people on communicating, here's what I would say to those people out there, say, Oh, my God, I have kids at home, here's what you could do. Tell your babysitter and your kids, hey, if there's an emergency, and you really need to get a hold of me, call me, don't text me, give me a phone call on my phone. Right? So then you can differentiate between a text and a phone call. And then if your phone is on you, and you don't like it, let's say you have it in your pocket, and it's ringing. You know, it's probably an emergency, right? And if it's a text message, it probably isn't. And so like that one simple instruction to your babysitter, your kids, completely changes how you need to check your phone.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] What a smart, great tip. And also, do you equate this to productivity in your work with like notification. So if you have all of your software sets up, and they all have notifications on and you're working on a project and you see all the bleeps and bloops. And all of the noises like is that kind of a similar parallel in the workspace? Like kind of maybe shut some of that stuff down when you're working on something or especially when you are done working for the day?
[Rob Krecak] Oh, yeah, Sami. So a couple of statistics that I love to share with listeners are. So when you're having an amazing day at work, you're just crushing and everything is going your way. That's a psychological state called flow. So some researchers measured productivity when you're in flow. And what they found is that you're 500% more productive when you're in flow than when you're not. So in other words, in two hours, you can accomplish more in flow than you could in the entire day without it. But here's the problem is when you're in flow, and you're interrupted, it takes you 26 minutes to get back into flow. Well, the average person checks their email and slack once every six minutes. And we get a smartphone notification once every 15 minutes. And so you're doing the math and saying, Well, gee, I'm never in flow. And that's absolutely right. The average person is never ever in flow. And so they're never getting as much done as they could. And so a huge part of technology. Mindfulness to me, is eliminating distractions. So you can focus on what matters most and be way less stressed and have a higher quality, output or product at the same time. They all work hand in hand together.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Okay, I love this all so much. And I feel like we've kind of come full circle, let me know if I'm wrong. But you know, talking about just like how to be thoughtful about the technology we use and how it can impact our business and then how it can impact us and how we are as humans productive with all of that, I think is also great. Rob, if people want to learn more about how you help people and how you kind of continue to grow this mindfulness piece with technology, how do they do that?
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, certainly, I'm happy to, you know, to have people go to my website. It's humansfirst.us. And then one other thing that I wanted to offer the listeners Sami is a free 30 minute technology mindfulness consultation call with me. All you have to do to redeem that is just email me. My email address is firstname.lastname@example.org. Just email me and mention this podcast and I'm happy to set up a free 30 minute zoom call to help you with your technology, mindfulness, or the four day workweek, whatever is most relevant for you.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And we'll have all of those linked up also at thefirstclick.net/178. So if you're listening to this while you're on your run, or driving or taking Well, I guess you're not taking a break from technology if you're listening to this, but that's okay. We'll have them all linked up in the show notes there. Rob, thank you so much for joining me today.
[Rob Krecak] Yeah, thank you, Sami. I really appreciate you.
[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] It was so great chatting with Rob, I hope that you got a new perspective around the way that technology impacts you personally and you in your business. I hope that you will subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss out on a single episode. They go live on Tuesdays. Make sure you subscribe and leave us a five star review and head on over to thefirstclick.net/YouTube if you want to check out video versions of these episodes. Thank you again so much. And I hope you're having a rockin holiday season. We'll see you at the next one.