Ep 170 | 5 Ways You Didn't Think You Could Use Your Project Management Tool with Jamie Hawk

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A project management tool can be a game changer for the efficiency of your business. It keeps you're entire team on task and allows you to have eyes. on what everyone is working on. andhwere they're at with tasks. But there are other ways you can utilize a project management tool to help you keep all things in one place.

What you'll learn:

→ how automation can save you time.
→ keeping your onboarding system inside your management tool.
→ brainstorming new things. foryour business.
→ allowing goal tracking for better visibility.
→ what to consider when choosing a platform.

Want to skip ahead? Here are key takeaways:

[5:10] Automation Automate as much work as possible to keep things moving. This eliminates the wasted time of having to constantly communicate with each other to continue working.
[8:36] Standard Operating Procedures Implement SOPs into your project management system to streamline efficiency. This can help employees move through each task faster, as well as help each other complete tasks as a team without having to explain everything every time
[13:55] Onboarding Use onboarding to help your employees find the information they need all in one place. Onboarding can also help volunteers and other staff understand how to approach their given tasks.
[16:20] Mind Mapping Mind mapping can help you visually look at your ideas and what directions those ideas can go in. Many project management systems have this tool available to use, or you can always use pen and paper.
[18:48] Tracking Goals Upload your goals into your project management system so employees can always see what milestones the business is trying to reach. Updates on these goals can be tracked so you can see when milestones are reached, or if certain goals need to be re-evaluated.
[21:59] Choosing a Project Management System No project management system will be 100% perfect for your business. Make a checklist of what you need and pick the program that best fits your needs. Choosing a system with more tools can be useful as your business continues to grow.

Resources

ClickUp*
Trello
Asana
Monday

*this page includes affiliate links. Should you choose to purchase we may receive a small commission. We are only affiliates of programs and software that we ourselves use.

Jamie Hawk

Jamie Hawk

Jamie spent years researching, helping, and learning operations in all different industries. Was committed to ensuring small business can have a high level Fractional COO in place in the early stages of their business. Learn more: https://altitudeops.com
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Full Transcript

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] When you think of your project management tool, do you just think about managing tasks and projects, I mean, that's what's in the name, right? That's what it should be used for. But a good project management tool can run your entire business. It can really help you track all sorts of things and keep on task with the programs that you're working on, projects, people, keep tabs on your employees. But just keep everybody in the loop on what's going on inside your business, what's the overall health of what's happening inside your business. We use Clickup as a project management tool, and absolutely love how we can do so many different things with it from task management to client information, to just tracking every little nuance that is in our business. And so I'm excited today to have Jamie Hawk here to talk to you about five ways you might not think about using your project management tool. Jamie spent years researching, helping and learning operations at all different industries, she was committed to ensuring small businesses can have a high level fractional CFO in place in early stages of their business. And she's here to share just how you can use that with a project management tool. Now, if you don't have one already, that's okay. You’ll learn from her some things to think about when it comes to bringing in a project management tool to your organization. And if you already have one, then this is a perfect time for you to figure out how you can take better advantage of it. And it doesn't matter what tool you use, the resources that she's giving you can be implemented in almost any project management tool that's out there. So I hope you'll take a listen, because there is gold. And I think I'm walking away with a little homework assignment of my own. But before we get into it, this episode is brought to you by the online fundraising virtual Summit. It all kicks off on October 24. So head on over to onlinefundraisingsummit.com to check out all the speakers and the goodness that's going on. It's all geared towards helping nonprofits build, grow, and expand their monthly donor programs for better sustainability. I really hope that you'll check it out and snag your free ticket. Again, onlinefundraisingsummit.com. Let's get into the episode. 

[INTRO] You're listening to the digital marketing therapy podcast. I'm your host, SamI Bedell-Mulhern. And each week, I bring you tips from myself and other experts, as well as hot seats with small business owners and entrepreneurs to demystify digital marketing, and get you on your way to generating more leads and growing your business. 

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hey, everybody, please join me in welcoming Jamie Hawk to the podcast. Jamie, thanks for joining me today.

[Jamie Hawk] Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to be here and and chat.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, well, we're talking project management tools. And so before people like run screaming, saying I don't like this is, I don't want to talk project management tools, can you just kind of give you a brief overview of why they're so impactful? And why you need to have one no matter the size of your organization, and why it's not too late to get involved in a project management tool no matter what.

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, it's funny, because, you know, a lot of our clients are like, Oh, project management tools, like, you know, they're, they feel so heavy and all the processes and systems and it can just seem like, Oh, we don't want our business to go in that direction. But really the flip side to that is, you know, not being able to keep track of projects not being able to collaborate correctly with your team, and all of that kind of stuff. So yes, there is that feeling when it comes to project management systems like Oh, my goodness, but on the flip side, there's there's so many great benefits, you know, it helps your team collaborate better together, keeps all the communication in one spot, linked up to a project that that communication is happening on. And so it just allows that just more transparency, keeps all your project information in one place. You can create templates and workflows, and just a lot of things that you can do in a project management system. That just helps you sleep better, because you just know everything's being tracked. So yes, I think it's important for no matter the size of your business, even if you're a solopreneur and you're doing your own thing, it's still important to keep track of what those tasks are, what your deliverables are, and all of your project information.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah. And I feel like with so many organizations working in a hybrid model, or still most people working remote, it's just a much easier way. I mean, like how often have you searched for something in an email thread, but then somebody switched the topic halfway through in that email thread. So then now you can't find the thing that you're supposed to have in order to complete the project that you're supposed to be working on. I mean, that's happened all over.

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah. Or you know, what I run into a lot too is people talking about things over text because there's no good system in the company. And then it's like, wait, I wasn't involved in that text message. And I had no idea so I asked the client I didn't realize you ask the client. And so yeah, there's so many ways that I hear people talking about the way they communicate with their team and how like inefficient it is and all this stuff. So project management system takes care of literally all of that.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And so we think about project management as what you just talked about, like how do we maintain our tasks? How do we kind of communicate with each other, but also kind of what you mentioned, like companies don't have an all in one kind of system for how we communicate and how we kind of work through things. So I'm really excited about our topic today, because you're going to talk about five ways that people maybe don't think about using a project management tool, which I think is awesome, because it might be that thing that pushes you over the edge to be like, okay, yeah, if we can do it with all these things, also, then it might be the time to take the plunge and do it. So I'm excited about this. So let's just jump right in. So what's your number one way that you think people don't often consider using a project management tool for?

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, so there, it's funny, as I was thinking about this, there's so many ways that I think people can utilize it. But I think my number one way that people should be using it is to automate work. You know, I think that there's a level of automating things where it becomes too automated, you know, you kind of have to keep that human, human part of it as well. But to automate workflows is super important. Because sometimes it's, it's the people, you know, somebody takes an hour lunch, and so you could have moved the project forward with somebody else who wasn't taking lunch. But really, because there's no automation or anything going on in there, nothing's really talking to each other, nothing's really very intuitive. So really, being able to automate as much as you can in your project management system will just help your workflow all around. So I think that's probably the number one thing I would say, if you're not doing your project management system, or, you know, you don't have in your projects currently is automating as much as you can in your workflows.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So what might be some examples of automations that people might want to create?

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, so I know, sometimes, for my clients, they have really large projects. So there's many things involved. Many different people and departments having to talk to one another. And so being able to have information pool from one part of the business and their side of the project into another part of the project that somebody on the other side of the business is working on, but still needs that little information. Super great. Another way is, you know, there's different steps in every project and task that we do, you know, it's not just this overarching task, like, oh, I need to set up something, there's probably five or six, twenty things that need to happen. And so allowing that stuff to automatically populate as it gets into different, I guess, statuses or sections of the project, one, helps people get their tasks in a better way, but also helps make sure that it's all streamlined. So you know, as you're doing one project, and you go to do the project for somebody else a month from now, it's following the same process, and you're not having to recreate the wheel.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So this would be something like creating a template. So like, for example, with my podcast, when I put that into our project management tool, it automatically populates all the tasks that need to be done, and when one is completed, and it's ready for the next person to do it, that it automatically shows up on their task list. So I don't have to worry about it until it gets to my next step. Is that kind of what you're talking about?

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah. So yes, the automations. And then that also dives into one of the other things, which is templates. You know, if you're not using your project management tool to have templates, you know, so that's kind of both, two of the five that I think are important for sure.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Okay, cool. Um, so one other thing that I love that you put this on your list is SOPs. This is something that has been on my list for a very, I'm just being real, for a very long time to create SOPs. It's something I struggle with, I think it's something that all of us struggle with. And we start to realize as we grow, and we add team members, and we add new stakeholders that like SOPs are critical, but we never I, you know, it's I think people don't know where to put them. And so using that in your project management tool, I think is genius. Could you talk a little bit more about that?

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah. And it's funny, because I tell my clients this all the time, I'm like, even if you have the best SOPs in the world, if they're just sitting in a binder or like some Google Sheets somewhere, and you actually want your team to reference those on a daily basis, probably not going to happen. People are so busy, there's so much training, it's hard to always remember where things are at. And so really to pair that down, and to have them all in one system is putting them in your project management system. So we talked about creating templates, and automations. Well, in those templates, and automations. You know, you have your tasks in there and all of that stuff, really your SOP should live within those actual tasks. So if I have for example, I onboard new employees. So I go into my system, I create a task for it, it populates all of the tasks I have to do for them. But not only that, within those tasks, it tells people how to do it. So if it's just said adding them in an email, or getting them signed up, You know, yeah, with your email, it's how do I do that? How does that happen? Well, here are the steps to do it. And it's written right in your project management system. So that way, if you know, the girl that typically does it is, you know, the employee that typically does it is out of town, and I'd have to have somebody else do it, it's really easy to have somebody step in, and it's not having to train somebody all over again on how to do it. And so it really creates, one, it creates it easier for you to train, but then it also helps your employees as they're doing a multitude of tasks to see what the steps are for that specific thing.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and I think, too, the search functionality, right, like, if you have a binder, and somebody's looking for information, it's not necessarily intuitive for everybody to go look in the same spot. But if I'm, you know, if I have a question about vacation, or I have a question about, you know, you know, how do I set up my email, like being able to type something into a search in a digital format and be able to find it makes it so much easier for your team as well.

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, absolutely. It's exactly like you said, I've gotten SOPs from big corporations that I've worked with before. And I'm always like, man, like, first of all, to read all these, I don't need to know it all today, I just need to know what I need to know today. And so sometimes it's like, overwhelming people. And I've had that in many jobs, where I just feel overwhelmed after training. And they always say, you're gonna retain only 10% of this. And I'm like, then why are we spending hours doing it? Tell me what I need to know, to get started and then have the rest of it kind of walking me through as I do it. And so, you know, I know I've been in situations like that, where I've spent a week in training, and I'm, like, great, I've learned almost, I mean, I've learned a lot. But I've learned almost nothing at the same time. And, you know, that's kind of what they have to do. They have to get you on boarded really quickly. But if it was in their system, they could pretty much just start giving you tasks and start running on things, and you're kind of learning and training as you're doing them. So that's kind of what we've seen. And also that search function is priceless. So.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And then, so that is even another way to automate. Right. And I love what you said about if somebody's out of town, like we can still carry on, we just have this. We're recording this in July, we just had this experience, obviously, we had people that were on vacation. And you know, we're in a sales cycle right now. And so we were like, Okay, we really need to set some things up a little bit differently, because we could have done a lot more follow up on our side, while you know, she was out of town. But because we didn't have these things in a place where all of us could really figure out what was what it was really hard for us to carry on. And you know, we kind of lost a week, which is totally fine. But could be could be better. And so this is a great way to just kind of be able to maneuver through and find the information you need, even if it's not your daily job.

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you think about not even just vacation, but people leave for other jobs sometimes. And people, you know, have to quit unexpectedly, because things happen in their family, or, you know, they're out of pocket with COVID for months. That's happened before. And so, you know, just things like that, that, you know, tragedy happens and things happen and life happens, but your business still has to carry on. And if it doesn't, then it starts to affect everybody on your team's life. And so, you know, just having those things in place from the get go, just really helped the team, you know, one collaborate better, and then also just be able to pick up each other slack as as things shift. And people's job shifts, you know, in a small business jobs are constantly shifting, you know, we have girls, and they're doing admin, and then I'm like, Oh, wait, I need you here. And then oh, wait, I need you there, it's really easy to put them in these different places and give them these different tasks. Because I already have the SOPs, they just had to follow the steps in there. And so they're learning new skills. So next time I asked them to do it, they know how to do it. But until they get the routine of it, they at least have a step by step guide to reference within the task.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So okay, you touched on this briefly. But your next way to use a project management tool is employee onboarding. And I think this also rolls up into kind of an automation mindset. But I definitely think people don't think of a project management tool as being the way that we bring our employees into the business.

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, so being able to streamline that process. And the reason that I added this to my list is because I think there's Client Onboarding. I mean, there's so many things. But employee onboarding, everybody has to do that. Right. I mean, that's, that's a pretty standard one that we create for every single one of our clients and automation with a template, who's doing what, all the things is employee onboarding, and thinking outside the box of different processes that you can put in place in your business, not just what are my deliverables to the client, but what does everything look like. My sales, what's the person doing on LinkedIn that's doing my outreach or you know, whatever, just being able to put all of your processes in there, not just project, and then being able to think about it from a business standpoint, not just what my deliverables are.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, this could be volunteer onboarding, board member onboarding. This could be your workflow for how you do welcoming for new donors. Like it could be all of those things that are just automatically populated. Right?

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, absolutely everything. You know, we've done things of, you know, going into vendors and asking, you know, how we onboard new vendors, we have worked with some clients who do have to have influence. Influencer Marketing is what they do. And so they're constantly trying to find new influencers and different types of industries. So you know, we have them fill out a form. That's right in the project management tool. What that does is it goes into like a influencer Rolodex for them, it assigns a task for somebody to check them out. So it's really just, and all they had to do was send a form and all of this already automatically happened. And now we have a whole list of influencers we can reach out to. We know what industry they're in, we know what projects they would be best to help in all just by one form. So yeah, so and then having to vet these people out and get on calls with them. That takes a lot of time, especially when, you know, we're talking to influencers, you could probably get on a phone with 100 of them in a week if you want to. Because they're always looking for things to do, as people are. So I think it's important to Yeah, in anything you want to keep track of not just projects is really good to have in your project management tool.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, so I love these first three that you've talked about, you know, are all very similar. So I think that's such a great place to start. Because, you know, you don't have to do, you're going to do the work anyway. So just do it all, take the time, just do it all at once. And just you know, I need to take my own advice, and clean up my house as well. So you're inspiring me to do the same thing. Okay, so let's jump into the next one. Because this is a little bit different. So you have mind mapping on your list. So why don't you first explain what mind mapping is for people who might, that might be a new term for them?

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah. So the way that I use mind mapping is I like to know what people's processes are. And so it's really easy for me to be able to just mind map that. What's the core thing, and then how does everything work out on to that, and being able to mind map. So what I typically mind map are people's processes and systems, because that's what I'm in the industry of. So I've never run into a tool, except the tool that I'm currently using that does this in a project management tool. And it has been life changing for me. So being able to mindmap. I know, as business owners, as project managers, as all these, you know, professionals in the world, we have so much in our mind, and sometimes being able to visually map that out onto something. And what's cool about doing it in your project management software, is that you can mindmap it, and you can turn that mind map into the project. So instead of being like I have this mind map in this third party software, now I have to transfer everything into my project management system, you can do it right in this project management system, you can create the tasks right from the mind map. But really, it's just a way to be able to visually see what's in your head and see the routes that it could go is really what happens and this product management tool that I use does that and it's been life changing. I know for me, so.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So you could if your tool doesn't allow you to do that, you could still do it on paper or in another, you know, program and then take whatever it is that you come up with and put it in, like that's always an option as well. And we'll talk about tools here in a little bit. But that's awesome. I have not, we both use the same tool. And I haven't done that yet. So I might need to do that.

[Jamie Hawk] I'll send you a little tutorial on how to find it and all of that. So you can kind of check it out. I love that. Yeah, yeah.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Okay, so the last one, and I love this. I love having this in your project management tool, is tracking goals. We tend to do that in multiple places. Like why not see it all in one space?

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, and I think it's important to you know, remember, in organizations, we don't have just goals in general, just like our business goals, and where we want to be and where we want to head. But there's also goals within projects and milestones within projects, especially, the longer your projects are, you know, you're thinking about milestones, and all of that kind of stuff. And so if you have a project management tool that can track that for you, one, it allows your team to see are you hitting the goals? Are you guys staying on track, all of that stuff also helps you see it, being able to, and the client, you can basically update them and say, Hey, we're 80% done with your project, or these are the three milestones we hit on your project this week. And so being able to track that, right there is really great, but then also your internal goals. I know from experience, I've walked out of quarterly meetings and annual meetings where we have a list of stuff and goals that they want to hit for the next year. But nobody thinks about it two days after, if not a couple hours after the meeting. So being able to actually upload those goals as a company, like we want to hit a million dollars this year, we want to, you know, sign on 10 new clients a month, whatever it may be. Being able to have that tracked and allowing your employees to actually put their hands on that and being able to update it. And all of that kind of stuff helps get your employees rallied around your goals, more than it just being some presentation they saw randomly at some quarterly meeting months ago. So yeah, being able to kind of put a process around it and everything as well.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, I think I love being able to see them in real time and kind of celebrate it. So if you're tracking kind of some small, like you said, milestones that are getting us there, like it makes it so much easier for the whole team to celebrate those wins, as you're working towards the bigger goal than to just say, well, we have a million dollar plan, we're going to hit a million dollars this year, and then you don't celebrate till you hit the end of the year. And or maybe you don't because you didn't hit it, right, as opposed to being able to say, Well, okay, here's we're on track. And that visual, I'm a visual person. So that's what I love about all of these things being in a system like this is that everybody can see it. Yeah, without having to be like, hey, so and so where are we at with XYZ? It's like, well we're, I can go in and look and say, Hey, for Q1, we're right on track for hitting our financial goals, or whatever it might be.

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, absolutely. I'm a pretty visual person, too. And so being able to have that, and, and again, it's even if your team's not looking at it daily, the fact that you can send a snapshot of where you guys are at with your goals and send that to your team on Friday, or pull it up during your team calls. Instead of it being like, Well, this was our goals. Okay, where are we at with those, what you know, being able to actually have it and just send a screenshot to your team once a week to celebrate, you know, is a great way to keep the team motivated, it's a great way to, you know, show your team when they need to step up, because we're behind on the goals, which is equally as important, right, as is equally as important to celebrate the wins, as it is to know where you're falling short, and where you need more energy on. And so this will help you, you know, equally in that area as well.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So there are a lot of project management tools out there. So before some, if somebody's listening to this, they're like, Okay, I'm sold, like I want to, you know, kind of jump in and try to figure out how this can work inside of my organization. Do you have any tips for how people might want to evaluate, so they don't go down the rabbit hole of just, oh, I'm gonna try this one. I'm gonna try this one. I'm gonna try this one, I'm gonna, because that can take months, you know? So how would you kind of encourage somebody to start the process of figuring out the right project management tool for them?

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, so we've vetted out a lot of project management tools, just over the years. And just because people have asked us what we think about them. And so we've, we've vetted out a lot. And, you know, it's important to note that none of them are going to be perfect for what you want. If you're looking for the perfect project management tool for your business, it doesn't exist, it's either going to do too much, it's going to do too little, it's not going to give you exactly what you need. So you might have to find some workarounds. So that's number one is what I would say is, if you're looking for the perfect tool for your business doesn't necessarily exist. So it's finding the best system for your business. We, you know, we work with a lot of different types of businesses. And so we've seen a lot of what people have used and all that stuff, we can sit and talk about, the negatives of all of them, and the positives, have to take forever. So I would say is just going in with the mindset of no project management tool is going to be exactly what I want, I just need to find the thing that hits 80% of what I need, and allows for work around for the rest. That will really help you in your journey of trying to find a project management tool that will be right for you and your business.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and the beauty of this is that pretty much all of them have a free option. So your entry in is not I mean, that's a blessing and a curse, right? Because that's why so many people try so many all at one time. So would you recommend kind of maybe having a checklist, doing kind of like a good, better, best of features and integrations and then just kind of picking one and just going with it? So that you can really put your stuff in there.

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, definitely coming up with like a really good checklist of what's important and what you're currently doing for projects. You know, we have some clients that they're really doc heavy, they like to create docs, they like to have lots of notes. And so finding a project management system that they can house all of that is really important. And so, you know, that might be really important to you, it might be really, really important that you can use color coding and tags. And you can see where the processes are at and timelines, that could be a different system. And so yeah, making a list of what's important to you, and what what are your top five things that you really want to see out of a project management tool, and then some things that are pretty important and then some things that you don't care about, as you're as you're going through them, right? If you're like, Oh, it does this feature, I don't care about that. It's okay to go with a project management tool that does too much. I would very much so caution. I would go with the most powerful tool you find because as you're business grows, and all of that kind of stuff you can grow into it, the last thing you want is to do one that's like, oh, this hits just what I need. And then a month, two months, three months from now, you're like, oh, man, we have to switch because switching a project management tool. It's doable, a lot of them now, like work with each other, because they want you to switch over to their software. So they make it pretty easy. But it's still a team, you’ve got to still set up the automations that are, you know, specific to that tool. So this is one decision that shouldn't be taken lightly. You know, if you get on the wrong project management tool, it's not impossible, it just is a little bit of work to get it, switch people out of project management system. That's what we do all day, we try to get people on the system that we use, because we believe it's the best out there. But so it is doable, but it's definitely a pretty heavy lift, especially when it's not what you do on a daily basis.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And I would say from like, especially if you're a solo shop, or if you're a smaller team, I would also take into consideration like how you work. Because I've used different, so I'll just say like we both use clickup. That is the tool that I landed on. I know that's Jamie's tool of choice. And again, for the same reasons, you just said, it's really robust, I can use what I need right now and grow it into, you know, as our team expands, it makes it a whole lot easier. But like, you know, it could be there's other tools that are out there that are much more simple, like Trello, I shouldn't say simple like this. But you know, like Trello is great. A lot of people use Asana, a lot of people use Monday, and for my nonprofit friends, I would definitely make sure that you reach out to them about a nonprofit discount, because a lot of them will have that as well. But really, I think taking into consideration how you work and what's going to make sense for the way that you use the system. Because if that doesn't work, then that's a huge barrier. Because you want people to be in it all the time.

[Jamie Hawk] Yeah, that's the biggest thing about a project management system as well. And this is what I tell clients, as well as you have to sell it to your team. It is not something that your team is just going to, oh my gosh, I love logging into this thing. And seeing my long list of things I have to do this week, like that's not going to help. Hopefully you get into people that are Creatives or people that aren't processed minded. And, you know, there's those people out there, I'm a very process minded person. But if you handed me a pen and paper and asked me to draw something like or, you know, come up with some grandiose marketing plan, like I couldn't do that, I'm very much so a process driven person. And so I would say definitely like creating the value, that is going to be the biggest thing in your team is yes, finding the right project management system is number one. But if you find the right system, but you're not creating that value for your team, or even for yourself, you're not going to get the discipline of getting in there and, and using it. So creating that value, creating those SOPs, creating those templates, showing people how it's going to make their job easier. And that goes into making sure you're finding the system that you will work best in. But creating that value is going to definitely make sure your teams in there, you're in there. And it'll just make the process so much better. But if you're just signing up for a project management tool, you just dump a bunch of stuff in there, and it's not done right. People are going to be way more confused than you before you had it. So creating the value and I would say is another thing is make sure that value is there for sure. Before rolling it out to your team.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, well, Jamie, if people are not convinced that they need a project management tool after listening to this episode, then I will be shocked. So get out there and do your research and get started. If there's any kind of last words of wisdom that you want to share, about why they're so impactful, or why these can be game changers for your organization. What would you leave people with?

[Jamie Hawk] I would just leave people with, is think about where you want to go with your business. If it's to grow your business, and to bring more people into your business, and to maybe eventually sell your business one day, having a project management tool that has all of your information in it is going to help you immensely and doing it from the beginning. Or even early on. If you're not early on. And you're like oh my gosh, am I too late to the game? No, that's not it. But I would say is the sooner you can implement it into your business, the absolute better, you're going to be able to sell your business for more one day, you're not going to be like everything's in my head. I don't know what to tell people, you will sleep better 100% You're going to feel confident that everything's being tracked. So I would say just do it. Your life will definitely be better. Your life will be better, your employees’ lives will be better, your clients’ lives will be better. Things will just feel a lot more like a business than everything's just in my head and scattered everywhere.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yep, that's so true. Well, Jamie, thank you so much for this. If people want to find out more about you and connect with you, how do they do that?

[Jamie Hawk] So LinkedIn is a great way. I run a business called Altitude Operations. So you can look us up on Instagram and LinkedIn and you know, all those things were there. So, absolutely.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] And we'll link that all up on the show notes at thefirstclick.net/170. So head on over there. Jamie, thank you so much for joining me today. This was awesome.

[Jamie Hawk] Thank you. I've really enjoyed it. I appreciate you.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to Jamie for joining us today. I need to hop back in and start working on my SOPs. That's my homework that I have gotten from this episode. It's always on my list and something that I really struggled to get done. So if you're struggling to get your SOPs done to you, send me a message and maybe we can help hold each other accountable. sami@thefirstclick.net. But for now, I hope that you'll subscribe so you don't miss out on a single episode. New episodes launch every Tuesday. Check out the show notes, transcripts and YouTube video for this episode. At thefirstclick.net/170. And I can't wait to see you in the next one.

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