Intrapreneurship from a pure definition perspective is just really a person that takes a entrepreneurial attitude and utilizes that within a company. So an example of that is I'm currently the CEO President for an equipment finance company based in Ann Arbor, Michigan. My entire career and when I first learned of this word and the definition, the principles and characteristics of it, I immediately identified myself as that. I work within an organization. However, I have to be someone that implements startup practices, innovation improvement with limited resources. And that's what drove the term over the last couple of years is because with what took place in our world and we'll continue like that, people are asked on a daily basis to do more and more with limited resources. In the days of just showing up and doing your job description and not looking for ways to improve have changed. – RJ Grimshaw

RJ Grimshaw is the CEO and President of Unity Equipment Finance which he grew from $13M to $80M in just two years. He sits on the board of the equipment listing and financing association. Although he talks a lot about some profit stuff, he also gives a lot of nonprofit examples as well. This conversation can be good for those that are in startups and trying to build and scale their business.

What You Will Learn: 

→  Meaning of intrapreneurship
→ Core attributes of intrapreneurs
→ It’s okay to fail
→ Success stories of businesses with intrapreneurs in their team
→ How to identify intrapreneurs in your team

Want to skip ahead? Here are some key takeaways

[03:44] What’s intrapreneurship? A person that takes an entrepreneurial attitude and utilizes it within a company.

[07:46] Core attributes of intrapreneurs.

• Taking ownership
• Life learners
• Calculative risk-takers
• Product development experts
• Always asking why

[25:02] Success stories of businesses with intrapreneurs in their team. 

• Toyota Prius. Now sold over 3 million models
• Gmail and Google
• Steve Jobs

[28:17] How to identify intrapreneurs in your team. Use these five easy steps from RJ Grimshaw’s free guide to determine a person’s attributes.

Full Transcript

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Hey there, welcome to the digital marketing therapy podcast, I'm Sami your host, and thank you so much for joining me today. If you're like me, then you may or may not have heard of this term. But today we're talking about intrapreneurship. And so when RJ Grimshaw my guest for this episode. When he brought this topic to me, I was very intrigued because it wasn't something that I had heard a lot about. And so I wanted to learn more and thought that we could learn together. I had so much fun with this conversation, he has some great insight and just some great aha moments. For me, I'm curious about what some of yours are, but great aha moments about just kind of the way we function as a team, how do we bring people together? How do we use that in order to really scale and grow and better serve our mission and our cause? 

So, I hope that you take a listen, and then I hope you take some time to reflect within your team who is on your team that might be an intrapreneur? And how can you maximize on that, and really help build and scale your organization, and really just reach your goals and exceed them? So I'm really excited about this episode, RJ Grimshaw is the CEO and president of Unify Equipment Finance, which grew from 13 million to 80 million in two years, RJ sits on the board of the equipment, leasing, and finance association. So he talks a lot about some for-profit stuff, but a lot of nonprofit examples as well. And I want to just say this can really be a good conversation, for those of you that are in the startup phase, for those of you that are growing your teams, for those of you that are really trying to build and scale in a big way, there's lots of really good information in here. 

So I hope you check it out. And then I challenge you to be open to thinking about things in a different way and what that might open up for you and your organization. Okay. But before we get into this episode, this episode is brought to you by our nonprofit website templates. Now, if you are going into 2022, because we're almost there, and you're saying to yourself, like man, our website just isn't up to snuff. But we just don't have the budget for our nonprofit website. Templates are here to save the day. These templates have everything you need already built in and we'll help you with setting up your colors, your logos get all loaded for you. So all you have to do is change the copy and the images you can get a brand new WordPress website up in just five days.  

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[INTRO] You're listening to the digital marketing therapy podcast. I'm your host, Sami Bedell-Mulhern. And each week, I bring you tips from myself and other experts, as well as hot seats with small business owners and entrepreneurs to demystify digital marketing and get you on your way to generating more leads and growing your business.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Everybody, please join me in welcoming RJ Grimshaw to the podcast today. RJ thank you so much for joining us.

[RJ Grimshaw] Hi, Sami, how are you?

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I'm doing great this morning. Okay, so we're here to talk today about a term that may be a lot of people haven't heard of. I just admitted before we started talking, recording today that I had not heard of it. So let's talk about the intrapreneur. Why don't you give us a little insight what is an intrapreneur? And why is this something that we should know about?

[RJ Grimshaw] Yeah, great question. And it's very common. A lot of people have not heard of this term. Actually, the term has been around since the mid-70s. However, in the world that we live in today, and what's really sped up this term in the in the in this type of culture within an organization is what we just dealt with with COVID over the last 1920 months in terms of just the fast pace change and innovation within organizations. And it's a term that I actually was first introduced to back in the mid-90s by a gentleman by the name of Tom Peters and he wrote a great book called reimagine. And also Peter Drucker who is an outstanding executive leadership management. Coach guru refers to the term as well, but over the, again the last couple of years it's really picked up a lot of publications and more and more people are writing about it more and more people trying to educate within their within their company.

But an inch of inertia from a deaf peer definition perspective is just really a person that takes an entrepreneurial attitude and utilizes that within a company. So an example of that is I'm currently the CEO president for an equipment finance company based in Ann Arbor, Michigan. My entire career in what I first really learned of this, this word in the definition of principles and characteristics of it, I immediately identified myself as that. And I work within an organization however, I have to be someone that implements startup practices, innovation, improvement, with limited resources. And that's what drove the term over the last couple of years is because with what took place in our world, and will continue like that, people are asked on a daily basis, to do more and more with limited resources in the days of just showing up. And, you know, doing your job description and not looking for ways to improve, have changed. Especially where the marketplace that you serve, in terms of nonprofits, those, those types of organizations are extremely valuable. And think about what they just went through over the last couple of years, with trying to raise funds and serve their certain serve. 

They're the people that they're trying to serve in terms of whatever market they're in, and there are so many great causes. But again, people that do that, probably are intrapreneurs, because they're taking their own time, right. And a lot of volunteers sit on boards, I sit on a couple of boards, and you have to have that type of mindset enabled to drive organizations and it doesn't matter Sammy if it's a small company, a large company, not-for-profit sports team, within your family is so it's, it's it is extremely valuable one for the person to identify if they want to be an intrapreneur as well as an organization to identify these folks that are in your organization because they want to they really want to drive the organization. Does that make sense? 

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yes, it's kind of like the antithesis of well, this is the way it's always been done. 

[RJ Grimshaw] Correct. Exactly in that and that is one of the characteristics if you're trying to identify if people are looking within their organization or right now the war on talent, right, and I shouldn't use the word war but that there's right now, it's critical to identify people that you want to bring into your organization. And really there's there are five core skills or attributes that I when I speak I talked about that you should look for one is an ownership mentality. And that is someone that will never make excuses. But they come in and they own what they do a lifelong learner mentality.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So that's not just in like your C suite or your leadership role, but how you look at just people you bring in for.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Exactly right. Okay. Any role it's not it's not from a leadership perspective, where you're leading within the organization, or you have the title leader, but it's someone that you put in, you put into a certain role. And for a larger example, that is one of when we're interviewing candidates for unify. One of the questions that I always asked someone, or I shouldn't say I asked this question I make this statement of to people that we’re interviewing is that I am a believer. I'm a believer in job descriptions. However, we're not a large firm where we have well-defined job descriptions, we're a smaller organization, and we really foster the term of intrapreneurship within unifying. 

However, what I'll say to a candidate is that if a year from now, we first have we come together, we decided to have, you know, we want you to join our team and you want to join our team. If a year from now, your job description reads the same exact way as it does today. We probably haven't done our job of fostering that culture, as well as, as well as most likely, you know, we just didn't have the right conversations because an intrapreneur is going to come in and make process improvements. They're going to look at ways to generate revenue, they might bring a different product to light and I have a prime example of that we had a gentleman that's no longer with our company. And that is one of the downsides of intrapreneur intrapreneurs they never sit still their mind is always racing they're always looking for improvement. And that's what drives an intrapreneur and this can this person came to me and said RJ I really believe that we need this to serve our customer base. 

And what it was was an online payment portal which we did not have at the time. And I said well it's it's not in our budget for this year, but we could do it you know, we'll put it in the budget for the following year. He said would you mind if I run with it? For a little bit, I said, by all means, but I would ask that you keep me updated on things that go on with this just so I'm in the loop if I mess something from our IT team, well, lo and behold, in and also see me, part of me didn't think that would work. But that, from a leadership perspective, when you foster intrapreneurship, you have to have an open mind you, you have to allow people to have the freedom to try things. So I let this gentleman try it. And last month, we processed $65,000 worth of payments through that portal Wow. And he drove the whole process. And it was not in his job description. However, he identified a need that our customers desired, he drove the process with outside vendors, internal folks, he had an influence these folks influenced the external resources as well, it did not have a budget allocated to do this. That's amazing, is amazing. So and I could go on and on and different examples of that. But that ownership mentality is that he said, I'm gonna own this, I believe in it. And you have to also understand from a leadership perspective, that there will be things that people will fail at, however, it's what you learn from that point forward in those experiences. So you allow that freedom now, however, as, as a leader in the organization that's trying to foster this type of culture, you do have to have some barriers because the last thing you want to do is have someone take on a task or initiative and lose focus on their core job right?

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] I mean, there's still it still has to be in line. I mean, like what this employee was doing for you was really solving a problem that was going to lead to faster payments and cash, right? Like That makes sense. So it's kind of pulling it all together? And how does it match up with what your organization's overall goals are?

 [RJ Grimshaw] Right. And that leads to the next, you know, identified skill is a lifelong learner. So this gentleman is a life learner. So even, he was excited just to learn in the process, he was learning about it, he was learning about setting up the web portal, things of that nature, and then you have to have passion, he has a passion, this, this particular gentleman has his law degree, he has business management, you know, degree, so he's always learning. And that's so critical for when you're trying to identify an intrapreneur. And again, that is the passion to learn. And then also, it's interesting, a lot of people say, Well, I'm not a risk-taker. That's why I'm not that's why I'm not an entrepreneur, right? You have to be a risk-taker to be an entrepreneur in terms of going out and starting a business to solve a problem. An intrapreneur is a calculated risk-taker, what they're doing is they're taking resources that they can control. 

And primarily, that's their time, and leveraging that within the organization. And from that comes the learnings and things of that nature. So it is, again, as you can tell, I'm very passionate about it. And I think it's just so beneficial for the organization. And these entrepreneurs are champions within the organization, you know, their product champions, their process champions, their marketing champions, their innovation champions. And more importantly, the most important thing comes down to this on a daily basis. And Peter Drucker was all about execution, their implementation champions that drive execution.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] So did we hit on all five of the characteristics that you were looking for or that you look for in the hiring piece?

[RJ Grimshaw] Yeah, so that I'll go through them real quick, again, ownership learner, their life learner, they have to have a passion for life, calculator, risk-taker in their process, or product development expert, you're always asking why, why, why. And it's very critical. It's very important to me that if someone views himself as an intrapreneur, for example, I do. So I had to seek out an organization that I knew that this type of mindset would work with them. And because it will fail miserably, that if you identify yourself as an entrepreneur, and you go into a culture that does not promote this, most likely you'll be very frustrated, for sure. And leave the organization and I can give you things that I'm another example of that than my previous employer which was, I was very good to me and I was there during the Oh 809 and the great recession and things of that nature.

However, during that time, I was very active in social media, I was very active in terms of understanding how we can utilize Like this, and my boss, who is the chief sales officer for the organization, and this is a publicly-traded company came to me and asked me to stop posting on LinkedIn and stop posting on Twitter and stop posting, you know, in certain areas without a legal review of what I'm saying. And again, all I was putting out there things is to build our brand for the company. It was nothing personal, I was all in I was very, I'm still very strategic. But ultimately, I ended up leaving for the current opportunity that I'm in, I've been here for eight years. Well, my former boss went on to a larger organization, and lo and behold, he called me, we always stay in touch five years later, he said, Hey, I need you to teach me about this LinkedIn thing. And, and Twitter thing, and I'd like you to come down and speak to my board about it. And we want to really start utilizing social media more. And that just shows you that an example of if you feel that you don't fit in, and you firmly believe in, in the mission and what you're trying to accomplish, seek out an organization that your qualities fit in the organization's mission.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and I want to ask, um, you know, because it seems like being an entrepreneur and being an intrapreneur, are not exclusively mutual, but are very similar types of personalities. But so if you have I mean, like, you'd normally can't have more than one entrepreneur, visionary in a company. So if you're bringing in multiple intrapreneurs, to kind of help support problems, solve, grow, scale, and build your organization, how do you kind of allow all of those personalities to meld together without the kind of stepping on each other's toes? Or like having competed, you know, ways to, to solve a problem? Like how do you kind of get those personalities to work well together?

[RJ Grimshaw] Well, that's a wonderful point, you cannot have an organization that is full of intrapreneurs, it won't work to all the reasons why you just pointed out. So there are there there are more and more software programs that are coming out that drive the innovation and drive process development in engagement with an organization that's trying to foster this. And you're then you're going to have, as I mentioned earlier, champions that are going to rise to the top and identify, and leadership can identify those folks. And then they're going to be the people that will drive that innovation, and process improvement and champion those initial initiatives within an organization. So the point being, you cannot have an organization full of entrepreneurs, right, or intrapreneurs. It's a combination of both. And for example, if 25% of your organization is identified as an intrapreneur, you're fine. That's, that's all you need. You don't want to be, you know, a company of 20 people and everybody, or everyone identifying themselves as an intrapreneur. Because that will not work because there'll be no progress forward, because everyone has great ideas, right?

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah. And so do you think that it's good to also sprinkle in a mix of like, I mean, do you want just your leadership team like so your head of marketing your head of fundraising, like would you want to have all of the kind of heads of departments kind of fit this type of problem-solving and entrepreneurial?

[RJ Grimshaw] I wouldn't say that it has to be from a leadership perspective, but the leadership has to foster the environment, right. And that's where the leadership starts. I really think the leadership at the end of the day, leadership at the leader at the end of the day has to be out in front of the company. And in leading the visionary and the dreamer. Let's be out of all entrepreneurs. Okay, our dreamers, this is the way that I look at it. The entrepreneurs, the dreamer, the vision, the entrepreneur, is the execution of those dreams, and are gonna drive that to have that vision work. 

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Would you say that it's almost similar to kind of the other kind of buzzword term that's out there these days, which is like the integrator? And would you say it's kind of similar to that because I also see value in having these types of personalities and styles be not the leadership and be kind of the doers, the people that are actually on the ground? Because then the leadership can say, yes, this works, this fits, and they can kind of make those strategic moves, but then the people are that are boots on the ground actually doing the work have a better pulse on what the problems are that need to be solved in order for them to get their work done more effectively and efficiently.

 [RJ Grimshaw] Yeah, I would. Good point. I would say that that integrator though sometimes is not that doesn't have the characteristics that I mentioned before in terms of the ownership and the learner, the integrator said You know, I view as an integrator is, here's the playbook now go drive and executed, they're not looking at, okay, this is boy, let's make this change or ask why now you could have someone that could have a mix of both, I view that integrator is more like a project manager, that is ensuring that milestones are met certain timelines holding people accountable. And, and things of that nature where that intrapreneur is, is really looking at, you know, again, asking why, and trying to figure out things and then drive as well, you know, but I wouldn't tag it as an integrator.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Okay, so um, you know, you talked about fostering that, that culture and building that openness for these intrapreneurs to thrive and be able to do their best work, when you're starting a nonprofit or whatever. It's, you know, it's usually founder started and as they start to grow, that emotion really kind of builds in of like, Okay, well, I can't let this go, this is how we do it. It makes it really, you know, there's a lot more emotion in place. So do you have any tips for ways to kind of allow your team to fail to know that that's okay, as you're building people to kind of give up some of the reins, because that's easier said than done.

[RJ Grimshaw] I have a smile on my face, here, because that's, that's the evolution of leadership. And we all go through that maintenance. And it's probably one of the most challenging things that any leader goes through in terms of delegation, and leveraging people around them, and allowing them to do that. And again, it's been a focus of mine over my career, as well as any business owners or, you know, management leadership people that I engage with it, we all have the same challenge, we want to own everything, right. It's we feel that that's what drives our success. However, when you see the light, then, when you see the light and that light is surrounding yourself, with people that you can trust that again, buy into the vision and buy into the culture and buy into what your the customer base that you're serving, and allow them, allow them to do their job and have that mindset. It's amazing what happens.

And COVID COVID really showed that for our organization, because we were 100% remote, RJ can interact or interject when he would overhear a conversation. Okay, and that's most, most leaders are like that, and business owners, right? They want to be involved in everything. And we had an outstanding year, last year, even with everything that was taking place in the world, which I part of me struggles in saying that because so many people had challenging years last year. And but what it did is it showed me, the leadership team that I've surrounded myself with is outstanding. And it really starts with a hiring process. And that's more the most challenging thing. And we actually include in our job descriptions now when we're hiring someone, that term intrapreneurship, we'll talk about that. So we're already having those conversations before they come into the organization. And we're trying to identify and say, Okay, this person is going to be a core employee, which is going to drive the business or this one's going to be a functional employee, that's going to be more of an implementer. Right? It's going to take care of the customer. So that we try and identify that and I think for a nonprofit, it or startup, I actually think that that this culture for a startup is more critical for that startup than it is for larger corporations and organizations.

And I've had this conversation with numerous people where they'll say, No, I think it belongs in larger corporations. And there's no right or wrong, but I come from a family of small business owners, we're a small business. And I think because resources are just so limited, and everyone is asked to do so much more with so little, that you have to have this mindset. And if in a smaller organization, if you just identify one person or two people, and they come in and influence the organization and help you drive it forward. And the gentleman they spoke about earlier, if they are with you for two, two and a half years, that's a great situation. Because they’re they're going to build that foundation to help you, especially in your startup.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, you mentioned you know, once you see the light you realize how great it is. And so with that gentleman and what he was able to do now and the impact he was able to make on your revenue. I mean, some of it at the beginning until you have those results is almost taking a leap of faith and saying we're going to trust that we've hired the right people to fit the role that we need. And now we have to do our part and allow them to do their part. And kind of back off a little bit, do you have other examples that you can share of the kind of some of the problems that you've seen and solved or kind of some successes you've seen as businesses scale with intrapreneurs on their team?

[RJ Grimshaw] Sure, well, you just, you know, a couple of products, you know, from what and again, I'm gonna reference bigger organizations that truly have innovation labs and things of that nature. But again, I'm I my belief, in my coaching about this topic is more simple. You know, it's more about the process improvement and seeking out products or things of that nature. But here are a couple of examples, the post-it note, that was invented accidentally by an intrapreneur. You look at the Toyota Prius, that was an intrapreneur, that identified that as a product and is now sold over, you know, 3 million cars, I drive a Prius. So exactly, Gmail in Google, that was an intrapreneur, that drove that product enhancement, Steve Jobs is probably the most well-known intrapreneur, you know, he was the ultimate intrapreneur. 

Because remember, when he went back into Apple, he, you know, he, really, he actually really started popularizing the term, and then it fell off. But there, but there's, and I could go on and on and on about different examples, but it's really, at the end of the day, it's just really about fostering that type of environment within an organization and Sammy, it does not take a lot to do that, right? It really, it doesn't cost anything to foster that environment. And again, there's a lot of different software platforms that we're actually now reviewing, as an organization that, that keeps everything in a consolidated form. And then the entire organization can vote on a vote on things of different products or enhancements, and it really drives the communication and the people get excited about it, even if they're not that intrapreneur they get excited about it because they see the advancement that's taking place within the organization.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Well, and you're then getting more global buy-in from your team, whether it's big or small, right, because even if it's not something they have to execute on, they're getting a say in kind of the direction and different things that the company is doing.

[RJ Grimshaw] Exactly, exactly. And that's a gamification piece of it now with the dopamine that they know there's people that are working on this that are a lot smarter than I am in terms of how to drive that so you know I'm excited about what the future looks like in regards to those tools back to helping the small to medium-sized business owners.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah and I think you know, there's something to be said when you're just starting out you know, you might have the emotion of the founder are not willing to kind of let go of any part of their vision or do things in a way that they didn't initially expect but then there's in the law or once you've been around even if you're not a giant organization once you've been around for years, then you have those habits that you've created. So either way, there are challenges in kind of embracing this kind of change. And so I guess if you were going to tell people like one like just to get started with something like this or just to kind of just get going and kind of see what happens like what would your kind of the first step be to identify if you have any intrapreneurs on your team? Or where would you just kind of get the ball rolling?

[RJ Grimshaw] Yeah, so if first, they have to decide right and if they in your example if they decided okay, this is a solution we want to employ, we want to deploy this into our company. There are really some five there are five easy steps and if people go to my website, RJ Grimshaw comm they can put in their email will actually send it's not even an E-book, but we call it an E-book of how to get started. It's really just a crazy Start Guide to get them going. And it's not difficult, the most challenging part of it is making that decision. Okay, we want to learn more about this and we feel that it's value and then really just identifying and those five things the core skills that I just went through you can go through any organization it doesn't matter the size of it and look for that someone has that ownership mentality and is someone a life learner is someone you know passionate about living in one another thing that I personally do when I'm interviewing candidates, I asked them what their dream job would be. Money was not an issue what would they get excited to get up and do every single day and i and I also prefer and say I don't tell me come to work for unifying. Okay? Don't tell me something you think I want to hear? And I'll tell them my example. I'll say my dream job is to be a head coach of a sports team. It doesn't matter if it's a hockey team, which I grew up and played, or football, I just love coaching. I love to compete. I love just that aspect of it. 

And I've had actually people start crying when I asked that question because it hits an emotion of what they really wish they could be doing. And, you know, some people that the interview wasn't going well, or I didn't think they would be a fit their answer one, then one, one them into the role. You know, and it goes back to the attributes of, you know, are they a life learner? If someone says, Well, you know, I'm not sure what I would do, you know, I might sit and watch Netflix all day. Well, guess what? That's probably not a fit. And that's been an answer before. Yeah. So if you can weed out and identify, and as soon as you identify the identified that person or those people, there's a lot of knowledge out there. And that's where we come in, and we'll help a company deploy that because there is a structure to it. And I don't want to scare people, because it's not very difficult to do but there, but there is a defined structure to deploy it.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, well, then head on over and grab that freebie and, and get started. That's great. So um, is there anything else about the intrapreneur? Because I don't know that much about it. I'm learning alongside all of you guys. What you know what else is critical for people to understand as we kind of wrap this up? 

[RJ Grimshaw] Well, at the end of the day to that business owner or nonprofit, nonprofit organization, at the end of the day, even if you deploy this within your company, or talk about it in your meetings, or talk about to your leadership team, you will see your discretionary effort of your intrapreneurs go up tremendously because again, they're passionate, they want to do a great job. And there's truly a difference between an employee and an intrapreneur. Yeah, in terms of their purpose on a daily basis, so even at the end of the day, there's no failing at all to deploy this and start talking about it within your company. So zero risk downside, and only upside, because all it takes is one or two people. Like I said earlier, my example with that gentleman to serve our customers, that can be a game-changer for them.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, I think it's really inspirational to think about, like those type those people that you might already have in your company that possesses these qualities that what ideas are they sitting on, because they haven't had it, maybe the culture or the open line of communication to be able to bring them to the table. So just like you said, there's no downside, there's an only upside, like what kinds of amazing things might you bring out of your team just by opening up this style of communication.

[RJ Grimshaw] Here’s another example, Sammy, that someone could do if they're if they have an indeed, or LinkedIn or job descriptions are trying to hire for a position to have a B test and see the level of quality of the candidates by changing your job description to add in the job title and intrapreneur. We've done that. And it's amazing to see the quality of candidates between the A and the be interesting. So just by adding that in terms of a job description that you're seeking, an intrapreneur. And some companies that I've coached, this, too, will add a definition at the bottom of the job description with an abstract so people can go and see what the definition is if they don't understand it, or Google it. But you could start with that basic and you'd see the quality of the candidates improved tremendously. So that's just one subtle little change your organization can make.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] That's awesome. Well, this has been great. I am definitely enlightened. And it's really making me think about different conversations that we have with some of the clients you know when we're working with them on a one-on-one basis in ways that they're kind of working through some of their struggles and pain points. So this has been awesome. I always love when I can do a podcast recording interview and learn a ton right alongside all my listeners. So RJ thank you so much for being on today's episode. If people want to learn more about you, how do they do that?

[RJ Grimshaw] They can go to rjgrimshaw.com or they can just google RJ Grimshaw my LinkedIn profile Twitter, I'm very active, as I mentioned earlier on social media, I respond to all my emails, and even if anyone just has a general question, as you know, I'm, as you can tell, I love talking about the topic and, you know, evangelizing how beneficial it is to people and more importantly to companies that, you know, serve purposes. So and I thank you a lot for being here and really enjoyed the conversation.

[Sami Bedell-Mulhern] Yeah, thank you so much, RJ. And we'll link all of that up in the show notes. Thank you for joining me today. Thanks, Sammy. Okay, so are you inspired? Thank you so much to RJ Grimshaw for joining us, all the links will be in the show notes for you to check out. I just think there's So much opportunity here and I really hope that you'll embrace it. And you know, just allow your team to kind of come up with some solutions and create some space for failure create some space for trying new things, because you never know what could come of it and I love that so much. So for now, I hope you subscribe wherever you listen so that you don't miss out on a single episode and I hope that you are just gearing up to have a great rest of the year. We are almost done, but 2021 Oh my goodness. Okay, we'll see in the next one.